Playing Chord Buttons Too Long - Mistakes Self-Taught Accordion Players Make.

[breezybellows]

I made the first episode a few months ago. In the last two days, I've received from feedback from a lot of you that you found the video useful. So I made the second episode today. Hopefully I'll make more.

Accordion left hand music usually notates the chords as quarter notes. If you don't have a teacher, it's easy to make the mistake of playing it as a full quarter note. As most method books, specify, the chord buttons should be played staccato. Failing to do so will drown out the right hand melody and will make the song sound muddy.

As a bonus, I also discuss how used to play the bass button (not the chord button) as long drones of slurred notes. I got rid of that style (thanks to my teacher) and I'm thankful that I did.

 

[Glug]

Hiya, quite interesting - I may be making several of those mistakes.

However there seems to be an issue with sound sync in video #2, definitely not lip syncing.
I had to check on video #1 to be certain it wasn't a voiceover.

 

[breezybellows]

Hiya, quite interesting - I may be making several of those mistakes.

However there seems to be an issue with sound sync in video #2, definitely not lip syncing.
I had to check on video #1 to be certain it wasn't a voiceover.

Glug, Is there a specific timestamp where you found the audio to not sync? I checked at random spots in the second video and it seems ok.

 

[Glug]

I just tried it on Firefox and Chrome, playing from Youtube directly.
I get bad sync from the start, possibly around 1 sec delay.
At the start the sound starts immediately and the videos starts after "Josh" in "Hi, this is Josh"

In video #1 it cuts from the title page as soon as I hit play and everything syncs.
In video #2 the title page stays up for about 1 sec but the audio starts immediately.

 

[breezybellows]

I just tried it on Firefox and Chrome, playing from Youtube directly.
I get bad sync from the start, possibly around 1 sec delay.
At the start the sound starts immediately and the videos starts after "Josh" in "Hi, this is Josh"

In video #1 it cuts from the title page as soon as I hit play and everything syncs.
In video #2 the title page stays up for about 1 sec but the audio starts immediately.

I added the title page as an overlay and its not supposed to make the audio lag. I see that the video starts a little late and the audio starts before the slide goes away. But I don't notice a lag in the sync. Are you sure you find a lag? The first few seconds of the video got replaced by the slide. The video wasn't pushed back.

 

[Glug]

I'm definitely getting a lag of some sort- first time I viewed it I presumed it was a voice over (possibly a translation),
it's only when I saw the first video that I realised it's the real voice.

Probably best to wait for somebody else on here to try it to see if they have issues too.

 

[LibraryJoe]

Thank you Joseph for addressing this. I have swapped away accordions (notably a Dallape and a Weltmeister CBA) because I could not get the entire bass side staccato enough to overcome the treble side. I overcame this a bit, by changing registers. But I know I was at fault, because professional players did not have the same results using my accordions.
But it's certainly worth reminding us hobbyists.

 

[breezybellows]

Thank you Joseph for addressing this. I have swapped away accordions (notably a Dallape and a Weltmeister CBA) because I could not get the entire bass side staccato enough to overcome the treble side. I overcame this a bit, by changing registers. But I know I was at fault, because professional players did not have the same results using my accordions.
But it's certainly worth reminding us hobbyists.

Even when we play the chords staccato, a strong bass register will overpower single voice registers on the treble side. Whenever my teacher plays one of my accordions, I feel that the accordions instantly start sounding better. If my accordions had a mind, they'll be upset that they're stuck with me

 

[dak]

Thank you Joseph for addressing this. I have swapped away accordions (notably a Dallape and a Weltmeister CBA) because I could not get the entire bass side staccato enough to overcome the treble side. I overcame this a bit, by changing registers. But I know I was at fault, because professional players did not have the same results using my accordions.
But it's certainly worth reminding us hobbyists.

There are different music styles, and an accordion should not enforce a particular style of playing. On my big instrument, I have a very wide leeway in registering stuff such that the hands/voices remain well distinguishable. That gives me the leeway to choose articulation according to stylistic choices rather than being forced. Also in the left hand the lower reeds take more air but respond more to lower pressure than the higher reeds, meaning that I can play a fully registered left side at a wide latitude of volume, with the sound quality becoming increasingly brilliant with rising volume while still cooperating with the right hand in reasonable registrations.

It may mean that the accordion has a considerable mixture of reed qualities and sizes and partly employs "suboptimal" reed chamber sizes and reed gaps. I don't care. The result for me is a lot of stylistic freedom. I find that with some standard bass arrangements I feel really hampered when playing a different, good instrument; and it is aggravating finding myself to have to bail on the kind of fine-grained articulation I have worked out for a piece, and having to revert to "conventional wisdom" about staccato articulation and whatnot.

I resent that. I am not a fan of accordions that tell me to play, well, accordion music. Now I am definitely not a professional player but consider it likely that I would be able to adapt to accordions like those you have "swapped away" these days. But I would be annoyed at having to do so.

Now if your desired genre happens to be in the ballpark of accordion music, there is nothing wrong with staccato chords and tuba basses. But for me, I want this to be an option rather than a necessity. And I appreciate an instrument that gives me those freedoms.

And when that means that the accordion manufacturer saved a few grand on reeds in my instrument, good for him, and good for me. I want the instrument to be valuable to me, not its parts. Of course there is correlation, but it is far from absolute.

 

[JKJ]

…So I made the second episode today. Hopefully I'll make more.

Thanks for posting this. I like the way you play short sections back-to-back so people can easily hear the difference. I also hope you’ll make more episodes.

BTW, I too hear a sync problem between the audio and video, where the audio comes in a tiny bit before the video (easy to see by watching the fingers on piano keys with the playback speed reduced to 1/4 normal). I get the same thing on two iPads and a laptop. It looks a little odd but it doesn’t interfere with the effectiveness of the comparisons.

 

[Siegmund]

I am coming at it from a similar place as dak. There are different styles of music. People need to know how to play staccato when staccato is appropriate, and to play legato when legato is appropriate. Both can be hard to do well. To do legato well, you have to learn exactly when to let up in order to neither leave silence between the notes nor overlap them. To do staccato well you have to bear in mind how long the sound takes to begin and end, and adapt the duration accordingly, so that it sounds like a single coming-in-and-back-out sound. Making them "shorter, but not really short" gives a really weird herky-jerky feeling where the sound starts - is sustained - suddenly is choked off - silence - sound again, which is just about guaranteed to sound wrong. (I am sorry to say that the demo at 17:50 sounds like the worst possible length for the bass notes to me.)

I am glad to see towards the end you showed examples of holding the single note for the whole bar and playing the short chords on top of it. (The video still made it sound like somehow adding interest to the bass line was tied to playing the basses shorter, when they are two independent choices. The best answer, imo, is to add interest to the bass line and then play the basses long enough people can hear said bass line.)

When working from a lead sheet, trying the same song with different bass styles to see what works best is a great idea. I wish more people did it. Sometimes it completely changes the character of the piece. It can vary even within a piece: one of my go-to tricks with pieces like fiddle tunes is 'long single notes and staccato chords within a phrase, and a held chord button at the cadences'.

I also happen to believe that if people did that kind of exploration, the everything-staccato style would be a lot less common. If I had made this video, the title would have been "99% of accordionists play their basses too short, and 99% of accordions are built with too heavy bass voicing."

And I have to say... hearing you describe your teacher made my blood boil. I am appalled when a teacher dismisses someone's concerns and has no answer other than "my way or the highway" when an issue is raised. I hope that he wasn't quite that abrupt with you. At a minimum I'd want a teacher to be able to show something both ways and discuss the differences in sound, the way you did in your video.

 

[breezybellows]

I am coming at it from a similar place as dak. There are different styles of music. People need to know how to play staccato when staccato is appropriate, and to play legato when legato is appropriate. Both can be hard to do well. To do legato well, you have to learn exactly when to let up in order to neither leave silence between the notes nor overlap them. To do staccato well you have to bear in mind how long the sound takes to begin and end, and adapt the duration accordingly, so that it sounds like a single coming-in-and-back-out sound. Making them "shorter, but not really short" gives a really weird herky-jerky feeling where the sound starts - is sustained - suddenly is choked off - silence - sound again, which is just about guaranteed to sound wrong. (I am sorry to say that the demo at 17:50 sounds like the worst possible length for the bass notes to me.)

I am glad to see towards the end you showed examples of holding the single note for the whole bar and playing the short chords on top of it. (The video still made it sound like somehow adding interest to the bass line was tied to playing the basses shorter, when they are two independent choices. The best answer, imo, is to add interest to the bass line and then play the basses long enough people can hear said bass line.)

When working from a lead sheet, trying the same song with different bass styles to see what works best is a great idea. I wish more people did it. Sometimes it completely changes the character of the piece. It can vary even within a piece: one of my go-to tricks with pieces like fiddle tunes is 'long single notes and staccato chords within a phrase, and a held chord button at the cadences'.

I also happen to believe that if people did that kind of exploration, the everything-staccato style would be a lot less common. If I had made this video, the title would have been "99% of accordionists play their basses too short, and 99% of accordions are built with too heavy bass voicing."

And I have to say... hearing you describe your teacher made my blood boil. I am appalled when a teacher dismisses someone's concerns and has no answer other than "my way or the highway" when an issue is raised. I hope that he wasn't quite that abrupt with you. At a minimum I'd want a teacher to be able to show something both ways and discuss the differences in sound, the way you did in your video.

The discussion with teacher went on for several months. So it wasn't abrupt.

The issue I'm addressing is not whether one can play legato when one wants to play legato. This is about the accordion sheet music convention. The chords are by default staccato. The reason that it's not written out explicitly to avoid redundancy. Every single method book (that is popular as curriculum) mentions this. To argue that the notes in the accordion convention bass clef can be played legato is incorrect. Unless they are explicitly marked marked as legato, the chords in the bass clef do mean staccato. One can choose to improvise but that doesn't change the convention. This is the same way as how chords are written as single notes in the higher octave.

Tldr; if you choose to play legato or longer chord durations as a style, it's up to you. Some beginners didn't know that bass clef for accordion has a standard convention. This is for everyone who didn't read the fine print.

 

[dak]

And I have to say... hearing you describe your teacher made my blood boil. I am appalled when a teacher dismisses someone's concerns and has no answer other than "my way or the highway" when an issue is raised. I hope that he wasn't quite that abrupt with you. At a minimum I'd want a teacher to be able to show something both ways and discuss the differences in sound, the way you did in your video.

Nothing wrong with sticking with a teacher as long as you learn something and make progress you wouldn't have been able to make on your own. If you expect a teacher to develop a personal method for you that is the king's highway to exactly the music you intend to be playing, your teacher will have expectations regarding their pay and your work ethics (and possibly your instrument) that will be a tall order in return.

As long as you keep learning how to make a positive difference regarding problems that may or may not already have occured to you, the teacher is valuable to you.

 

[dak]

The issue I'm addressing is not whether one can play legato when one wants to play legato. This is about the accordion sheet music convention. The chords are by default staccato. The reason that it's not written out explicitly to avoid redundancy. Every single method book (that is popular as curriculum) mentions this. To argue that the notes in the accordion convention bass clef can be played legato is incorrect. Unless they are explicitly marked marked as legato, the chords in the bass clef do mean staccato. One can choose to improvise but that doesn't change the convention. This is the same way as how chords are written as single notes in the higher octave.

Well, in the accordion score for Oblivion I played here there were no legato marks in the chords (though some in bass phrases). I don't really think that means canonically that all chords are to be played staccato. The original from which this accordion excerpt has been derived most certainly does not do so. There are also pieces with complex Jazz harmonies (generated with multiple chord buttons) where a staccato does not give sufficient time for "disassembling" the stacked harmonies. And of course there are organ music adaptions that make no sense playing staccato.

The typical "Oom pah" accompaniment style that can be adapted to a lot of music will generally benefit from an articulation style that approximates a plucked double bass on the bass notes and a hihat (or a struck and damped guitar) on the chords. Indeed guitars are often played in their own approximation of an "Oom pah" style and have different characteristics for "bass" and "chord" notes.

Staccato will not be written explicitly in accordion-style music as a rule, but legato or portato will not be written explicitly in combo imitating styles of music as a rule, either. What you get in a score tends to be the deviations from the expected style, but there is no hard default.

 

[breezybellows]

Well, in the accordion score for Oblivion I played here there were no legato marks in the chords (though some in bass phrases). I don't really think that means canonically that all chords are to be played staccato. The original from which this accordion excerpt has been derived most certainly does not do so. There are also pieces with complex Jazz harmonies (generated with multiple chord buttons) where a staccato does not give sufficient time for "disassembling" the stacked harmonies. And of course there are organ music adaptions that make no sense playing staccato.

The typical "Oom pah" accompaniment style that can be adapted to a lot of music will generally benefit from an articulation style that approximates a plucked double bass on the bass notes and a hihat (or a struck and damped guitar) on the chords. Indeed guitars are often played in their own approximation of an "Oom pah" style and have different characteristics for "bass" and "chord" notes.

Staccato will not be written explicitly in accordion-style music as a rule, but legato or portato will not be written explicitly in combo imitating styles of music as a rule, either. What you get in a score tends to be the deviations from the expected style, but there is no hard default.

I was referring to the bass clef convention for accordion which applies for music written for the accordion. In other words, polkas and waltzes (oompah style).
For other styles of music adapted on the accordion, this doesn't apply.

Oompah music doesn't always ask you to play staccato. If a player doesn't know this, then the songs will sound mushy.

 

[Tom]

Thanks Breezy, I too took a long time to appreciate this way of playing.

 

[Siegmund]

I was referring to the bass clef convention for accordion which applies for music written for the accordion. In other words, polkas and waltzes (oompah style).

I think that focuses in on where our disagreement lies. A lot of accordion teachers put it as you did --- and I think that this a) perpetuates a stereotype about what kind of music accordions should play and b) incorrectly describes the convention.

There's a general rule in music that you have to understand the conventions of a style in order to play music written in that style. I think dak gives a good summary when he says "what you get in a score tends to be the deviations from the expected style, but there is no hard default." This is true of both hands, and all instruments.

For (fast) waltzes, there is an expectation the downbeat is held long and the offbeat chords are short. The second violins and violas play the offbeats short (and sometimes half a beat late) when we play Johann Strauss even through he wrote straight quarters, just like accordionists playing the -pah-pahs short.

For polkas and for a lot of other fast dances, there is an expectation all the chord notes including the downbeats are short. This applies to tubas and trumpets and clarinets and to accordion left hand.

For many kinds of fiddle tunes there is an expectation that the melody eighth notes will be long and the quarter notes short, whether you play them on a fiddle or on an accordion right hand. And so on for every other kind of music.

But in my view there is no such thing as "the bass clef accordion convention." There are genre specific conventions that apply to accordionists when they play that genre. If you've never played that kind of music you have to be taught what the conventions are, of course. If you teach a student a polka, yes, you teach them to play the left hand staccato, at least once they start speeding it up.

But I think poorly of the teachers who give the impression it's a universal rule. Sort of the same way I think poorly of people who think violins always play détaché unless instructed to do something else, and people who build defaults like "play every staccato note at 1/3 length and every non-slurred note at 2/3 length" into their music notation and playback softwares.

On the other hand, I really appreciate the people who take care to help the performer with careful notation - Frosini gives a lot of information by his choice of quarter vs. eighth with a rest or eight with or without a dot in his parts, though it still requires some interpretation.

 

[breezybellows]

I think that focuses in on where our disagreement lies. A lot of accordion teachers put it as you did --- and I think that this a) perpetuates a stereotype about what kind of music accordions should play and b) incorrectly describes the convention.

There's a general rule in music that you have to understand the conventions of a style in order to play music written in that style. I think dak gives a good summary when he says "what you get in a score tends to be the deviations from the expected style, but there is no hard default." This is true of both hands, and all instruments.

For (fast) waltzes, there is an expectation the downbeat is held long and the offbeat chords are short. The second violins and violas play the offbeats short (and sometimes half a beat late) when we play Johann Strauss even through he wrote straight quarters, just like accordionists playing the -pah-pahs short.

For polkas and for a lot of other fast dances, there is an expectation all the chord notes including the downbeats are short. This applies to tubas and trumpets and clarinets and to accordion left hand.

For many kinds of fiddle tunes there is an expectation that the melody eighth notes will be long and the quarter notes short, whether you play them on a fiddle or on an accordion right hand. And so on for every other kind of music.

But in my view there is no such thing as "the bass clef accordion convention." There are genre specific conventions that apply to accordionists when they play that genre. If you've never played that kind of music you have to be taught what the conventions are, of course. If you teach a student a polka, yes, you teach them to play the left hand staccato, at least once they start speeding it up.

But I think poorly of the teachers who give the impression it's a universal rule. Sort of the same way I think poorly of people who think violins always play détaché unless instructed to do something else, and people who build defaults like "play every staccato note at 1/3 length and every non-slurred note at 2/3 length" into their music notation and playback softwares.

Unless a score is articulated, defaults need to exist. I've checked three different method books (Palmer-Hughes, Magnate method, Pietro Deiro method book). They all mention chords to be played short and not at full quarter note value.

And for the record, my teacher was strictly against slurring every bass note into the chords. As opposed to "never play long notes" his stance was "slurring every single bass note is not correct. They need to be detached".

Now that I think about it more, it wasn't so much about playing the bass note longer, but it was about defaulting to a legato.

 

[dak]

There is also the question about what idea music expresses. A dance needs to convey rhythmic precision in noisy circumstances. That dictates articulation. A symphonic composition wants to convey a certain sound impression which includes lots of articulation detail. A Bach fugue conveys musical and harmonic complexity that tends to be widely unrelated to articulation choices: here I find it seriously distracting when a publisher adds articulations and execution marks to what was a reasonably uncluttered manuscript. A choral tends to work in words and phrases that connect notes and rhythmic accents in a coherent manner with very subtle differences in phrase connection approximating the flow of speech or poetry. Slurring two notes in an unexpected place may sound like the accordion has been drinking.

I find it one of the fascinating aspects of working with sheet music to discover music, to develop it, to revisit and rediscover it and tell a new story in old words (or rather old notes). It can be super annoying for my housemates when I return to explore the microcosm of some piece I have returned to time and again for years. It's better for people just hearing the results in the form of a snapshot at the end of some development.

And in that context there isn't as much "this is wrong" for me as "this does not work". Timbre and overtone structure for pieces adapted to accordion, and pieces adapted to my accordion and registration choices will sometimes call for transposition by octaves or sometimes other intervals, sometimes differently in different hands, to make them work well. Piano music is written for a percussive instrument with significant disharmonicity, meaning that mapping it to accordion requires working out a suitable style.

What I end up with needs to work. There are lots of useful and established conventions about things that tend to work reasonably well, and it pays being able to call upon them and be able to employ them. And I have no problem with a teacher who says "we are going to practice playing this in such and such manner and style until you can call upon it in your sleep." But it's a matter of being skilled with a toolbox rather than correct.

 

[Siegmund]

Unless a score is articulated, defaults need to exist.

In my view, defaults, plural, need to and do exist, one for each style and tempo of piece - not one universal default. Legato first beats for waltzes and short first beats for polkas is a convenient example.

I've checked three different method books (Palmer-Hughes, Magnate method, Pietro Deiro method book). They all mention chords to be played short and not at full quarter note value.

I checked the four I had handy and reached a different conclusion. (I omitted this from my last post with the hope it would defuse things a bit and keep it shorter...)

Palmer-Hughes 1 says "play these notes short!" in the example where it introduces the waltz rhythm - without saying if it means only that exercise, or all waltz rhythms, or all pieces period. (I think it's obvious it means either the first or second, but it doesn't say.) It then doesn't mention it again. I think this is a bit of a defect. It SHOULD mention it again at the first 4/4 piece 20 pages later, or in the book 1 quiz, or in the book 2 left hand review.

Galliano introduces the basses with sustained-chord exercises, then 'slow, even and separated' oom-pah lines, and then doesn't say what he intends on the early both-hands exercises. But his recording plays both single notes and chords very short, so presumably he intends that. (Later in the book there are pieces where he contrasts eighths-and-rests with quarter-note basses.)

Anzaghi introduces staccato after 10 pages of legato bass-chord exercises, and says it is indicated by a dot. He continues to specify 'fairly legato sound' for many following exercises. When he wants staccato he writes dots or he writes eighth-note chords followed by rests, throughout the whole book. Staccato drills, for both hands, appear more than 100 pages in. The "bass note held through the bar, chords very short" variation you use at the end of your video appears on page 125 (and is notated with a dotted-half downbeat and eighth note-eighth rest chords.)

Würthner (yes -- he's old, but he's still often used by German speakers, especially if they play B system) introduces single sustained chords, then sustained chords accompanying hymns, then introduces articulation in the following chapter. After defining legato, portato, and staccato, he comments that portato is a default for unmarked single-note passages, and sets legato single notes and portato chords as his default for oom-pah-pah patterns.

This leaves me with the feeling that the obsession with everything staccato is either very recent or very USA-centric or both. I'd like to think it's confined to people who only play waltzes and polkas, or confined to people on instruments with no register switches and too many bass reeds.

Of course you won't be surprised to hear that the first book I studied from was Anzaghi's.