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Playing a chord with a raised fifth on Stradella bass

Mike K

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Is there a reasonable way to accomplish this....say play a C Major with a raised fifth on a Stradella bass?
 
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Geronimo

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Mike K post_id=55634 time=1519306142 user_id=1773 said:
Is there a reasonable way to accomplish this....say play a C Major with a raised fifth on a Stradella bass?
In short, no. Augmented chords are the nemesis of Stradella. C Major with a raised fifth consists of three major thirds. Assuming that you arent just playing three single bass notes (way too muddy unless you have a very high register), any chord you play will deliver at most one major third, and one functionally distracting note.

Suspended chords are almost as bad, but one can often get away by having a few functionally not too distracting notes sounding as well. But with augmented chords, functionally not too distracting just isnt there unless possibly the augmented chord is part of some chord sequence in which case the sequences leading notes might be important enough that getting them right (and a lot else wrong) at least conveys some intent.
 

debra

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Mike K post_id=55634 time=1519306142 user_id=1773 said:
Is there a reasonable way to accomplish this....say play a C Major with a raised fifth on a Stradella bass?

As Geronimo already said, the answer is no.
But there are some rare accordions out there that have a raised fifth instead of the diminished bass. This makes perfect sense: you can have major which is a major third plus a minor third, then minor which is a minor third plus a major third, seventh without base note which is a minor third plus a minor third, and this can substitute the diminished of the next note (the C7 this way can substitute for Gdim) and then the last row is available for augmented fifth: a major third plus a major third. Sadly, an accordion with this setup is very rare and almost everyone who tries such an accordion has to go through a period of great confusion as to why the seventh doesnt work...
 

JeffJetton

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If the raised fifth is on a 7th chord (as is usually the case in pop/jazz music), or on something that can be played as 7(+5) chord even if it's not explicitly notated that way (such as when it's functioning as a V chord), then you might have an option.

On most standard accordions, the fifth is left out of 7th chords in the LH. So you can add the raised fifth in the right hand, as a harmony note to the melody, and it won't clash with the perfect fifth in the LH chord. If the raised fifth is in the melody already--which it often is--then it's even easier.

When a song calls for a particular chord to go along with the melody, that doesn't mean it's solely the left hand's job to do it. The melody+harmony of a song is the combined efforts of both sides of the accordion, and you don't necessarily have to always divvy it up the same way all the time.

Is there a particular song that you're encountering this chord on?
 

debra

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JeffJetton post_id=55713 time=1519576831 user_id=1774 said:
If the raised fifth is on a 7th chord (as is usually the case in pop/jazz music), or on something that can be played as 7(+5) chord even if its not explicitly notated that way (such as when its functioning as a V chord), then you might have an option.

On most standard accordions, the fifth is left out of 7th chords in the LH. So you can add the raised fifth in the right hand, as a harmony note to the melody, and it wont clash with the perfect fifth in the LH chord. If the raised fifth is in the melody already--which it often is--then its even easier.
...

When the raised fifth is on a 7th chord, like C E Gis B then it is simply a matter of playing the C base note plus the E major chord (E Gis B). And to include C in the chord it is C7 + E major (because the G is left out in C7).
The problem is when the raised fifth is *not* on a 7th chord: then it is impossible with Stradella.
 

JeffJetton

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debra post_id=55714 time=1519577288 user_id=605 said:
When the raised fifth is on a 7th chord, like C E Gis B then it is simply a matter of playing the C base note plus the E major chord (E Gis B). And to include C in the chord it is C7 + E major (because the G is left out in C7).
The problem is when the raised fifth is *not* on a 7th chord: then it is impossible with Stradella.

C bass + E major chord would technically be a Cmaj7(+5) rather than a C7(+5).

If a C7 were played with an E major chord, the B flat in the C7 would clash with the B natural in the E major.
 

debra

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JeffJetton post_id=55718 time=1519587237 user_id=1774 said:
debra post_id=55714 time=1519577288 user_id=605 said:
When the raised fifth is on a 7th chord, like C E Gis B then it is simply a matter of playing the C base note plus the E major chord (E Gis B). And to include C in the chord it is C7 + E major (because the G is left out in C7).
The problem is when the raised fifth is *not* on a 7th chord: then it is impossible with Stradella.

C bass + E major chord would technically be a Cmaj7(+5) rather than a C7(+5).

If a C7 were played with an E major chord, the B flat in the C7 would clash with the B natural in the E major.

Shoot... I wasnt thinking clearly. The Cmaj7(+5) is what you want with the raised fifth as part of the 7th.
With the raised fifth you dont want the normal 7, so indeed, C7 should not be added.
 

Pipemajor

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If the raised fifth is on a 7th chord (as is usually the case in pop/jazz music), or on something that can be played as 7(+5) chord even if it's not explicitly notated that way (such as when it's functioning as a V chord), then you might have an option.

On most standard accordions, the fifth is left out of 7th chords in the LH. So you can add the raised fifth in the right hand, as a harmony note to the melody, and it won't clash with the perfect fifth in the LH chord. If the raised fifth is in the melody already--which it often is--then it's even easier.

When a song calls for a particular chord to go along with the melody, that doesn't mean it's solely the left hand's job to do it. The melody+harmony of a song is the combined efforts of both sides of the accordion, and you don't necessarily have to always divvy it up the same way all the time.

Is there a particular song that you're encountering this chord on?
I appreciate that is resurrecting an old post but I have recently been attempting to play Ruggero Passarini's "Valentino".
In the 4th bar, this calls for a D7+ with a C # in the right hand.
The only combination I could find was by Hans Palm which gives D plus F# chord, which, with the C# melody note sounds bad.
I wonder if there is an alternative chord I can use.
I'm a bit puzzled as to why an accordion player would compose a tune and give an "impossible " chord symbol on the score.
 

Zevy

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As Geronimo already said, the answer is no.
But there are some rare accordions out there that have a raised fifth instead of the diminished bass. This makes perfect sense: you can have major which is a major third plus a minor third, then minor which is a minor third plus a major third, seventh without base note which is a minor third plus a minor third, and this can substitute the diminished of the next note (the C7 this way can substitute for Gdim) and then the last row is available for augmented fifth: a major third plus a major third. Sadly, an accordion with this setup is very rare and almost everyone who tries such an accordion has to go through a period of great confusion as to why the seventh doesnt work...
Guido Deiro had such an accordion. I believe it was a 140 bass with the extra row for diminished chords. Watch this:
E diminished chord
 

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Guido Deiro had such an accordion. I believe it was a 140 bass with the extra row for diminished chords. Watch this:
E diminished chord
Thanks for that Zevy.
What I'm really looking for is not an alternative way of playing the augmented chord but another chord which would sound Ok in it's place.
If you had an augmented chord on a piece of music, what would you play instead? :unsure:
 

NickC

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Can you post the excerpt from the sheet music? I tried to find it, but I don't have it.
The D7+5 chord would be D F# A# C, and I am having a hard time hearing the C# melody over the C natural in the chord tones. Is the C# a passing tone?
 

Zevy

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Thanks for that Zevy.
What I'm really looking for is not an alternative way of playing the augmented chord but another chord which would sound Ok in it's place.
If you had an augmented chord on a piece of music, what would you play instead? :unsure:
I would play the root or the third (depending on the situation) in the bass, then insert the augmented fifth somewhere in the right hand. Sorry, but there's no quick fix here. 😐🪗
 

lmschgo

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A useful source for complex accordion chords is accocrdionchords.com

I like that chord combinations for the Stradella base system are well illustrated and easily understood.
Attached is the CHORD CHART from the website.

Unfortunately, the site does not have a suggestion for playing a raised fifth, as queried in the initial post.
 

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Pipemajor

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Can you post the excerpt from the sheet music? I tried to find it, but I don't have it.
The D7+5 chord would be D F# A# C, and I am having a hard time hearing the C# melody over the C natural in the chord tones. Is the C# a passing tone?
2020-11-13 22.47.19.jpgHere is the tune in question.
Fourth bar has a C sharp with a D augmented.
 

dunlustin

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Pls say if this is nonsense:

Could F+ here mean a major 7 ( C# not C) and 'D 7+' would just be D chord in the left hand and the melody C#?
The rest of the chords seem unsurprising so that could be a simple answer.
 

losthobos

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Looks to me like someone else, not the publisher, has added the chord names... So doesn't make them gospel.... D7 wouldn't work so perhaps whoever notated just used that symbol to donate maj7th as was there habit...
@dunlustin may have cracked the enigma code...
 

NickC

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I actually did have this chart. Losthobos, the chords were originally in solfege, so it was written as Re7+. I think you are correct that it should be a Dmaj7Sus chord. I couldn't find a recording of this song on Youtube, so it's hard to tell the intention of that chord. Might be best to play a Dmaj in the bass, and add an A# in the right hand??
 

losthobos

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Right or wrong... Make it strong....
If in doubt.... Leave it out.... 😉

On a side note i follow a lot of hammond and piano players and have noticed sometimes they'll be vamping along real sweet punching in chords on the right hand, and every now and again if a chord is difficult to finger or reach they punxh the air instead to keep a tight swing rhythm in their body mechanics and the resulting 'gap' in the music is actually quite exciting and stimulating.... Just an idea.... Ps.. I cheat a lot.....
 

Pipemajor

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Looks to me like someone else, not the publisher, has added the chord names... So doesn't make them gospel.... D7 wouldn't work so perhaps whoever notated just used that symbol to donate maj7th as was there habit...
@dunlustin may have cracked the enigma code...
The original score had the chord symbols in sol fa.
I just changed them to A,B,C etc to make it easier for me to read them on the fly.
 

JeffJetton

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Here is the tune in question.
Fourth bar has a C sharp with a D augmented.

@dunlustin is almost 100% certainly right here. That is not a D7(#5) chord. It has got to be simply an unorthodox way of indicating a Dmaj7 chord.

How do you play a Dmaj7 chord in the left hand? In this case, it doesn't matter, because you don't have to play a Dmaj7 in the left hand here. :)

See, the chord symbols on lead sheets like this aren't necessarily telling you what chord to play in the left hand. What they're really telling you is the suggested overall harmony at that point in the music. Now you might choose to convey that harmony solely via the left hand buttons (and for simple songs, that's usually what you'd do), but you don't have to. You can also convey it via the notes you play in the right hand. Or you can split the notes involved between the two hands.

In this case, if you play D major in the left hand and play the C# melody note in the right hand, you are faithfully executing a Dmaj7. The notes coming out of your accordion together form a Dmaj7 chord, so you're all set.

Same goes for if a song really did happen call for a D7(#5)--which, again, I seriously doubt this one does. Either the #5 would be in melody already, or you could just toss it in as an extra harmony note under whatever the melody was. You could then just play a regular ol' D7 in the left-hand, which (as previously-discussed) has no 5th in it at all anyway. No need to get your fingers in a knot trying to cover the entire harmony in the LH.

(By the way, this answers your other question above. These are not "impossible" chord symbols once you realize you're not restricted to playing them on the chord buttons.)
 

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