ergonomics for CBA and PA

[Deleted member 48]

Summary in English and some pdf docs on this Swedish accordion website, comparing the CBA systems and PA
Interesting thoughts and arguments on PA system, C-system or B-system.

http://nydana.se/accordion.html#cbacvscbab

Piano Accordion vs. Chromatic Button Accordion
CBA-C vs. CBA-B

Suppose many already know this website, good starter for information on the chromatic button accordion system.

 

[squeezeboy]

Well, it's hard to use the word "ergonomic" for a piano keyboard attached to the side of an accordion... It wasn't designed for that in mind.

The CBA, on the other hand, follows the tradition of the buttons manual, with a clever layout.

I know there are lots of virtuosi PA players out there, but I can only imagine what they could do if they had a better keyboard layout in their hands!

 

[Zevy]

Well, its hard to use the word ergonomic for a piano keyboard attached to the side of an accordion... It wasnt designed for that in mind.

The CBA, on the other hand, follows the tradition of the buttons manual, with a clever layout.

I know there are lots of virtuosi PA players out there, but I can only imagine what they could do if they had a better keyboard layout in their hands!

<FONT font=Garamond><SIZE size=125><COLOR color=#0040FF>There are many things that were not originally designed but still work. Take the left hand button layout. I do not believe the system we have and enjoy was designed for the special and sometimes contortionist fingerings to be employed.
In the hands of a good musician and with the help of a master tutor (and plenty of practice), the piano accordion is just fine. It has been years (thank God) since I suffered any accordion-related injuries. I am not starting all over again, and have no regrets.

 

[Russ]

In my own opinion it is a matter of choice. The proof is in the pudding and when someone can show me or let me hear that CBA players at the top level are better than top level PA players because their instrument is superior then I will believe the CBA is a better instrument. I just have a feel for buttons rather than the keyboard.

 

[Deleted member 48]

For amateur accordion enthusiasts, ergonomics and the implications on choosing a layout system may not be a top priority.

For conservatory level accordion students, ergonomics has a role to play, for all sorts of musical instruments (eg compare the different keys systems applied to the clarinets in 19th century, different types of guitars 5-string, 6-string, 7-string guitars, harp-guitars, etcetera in 19th century). The same for accordion types.

The proof is in the pudding for the professionals, and the proofs are to be found in international accordion top competitions (Klingenthal in Germany, Castelfidardo in Italy, Coupe Mondiale , and other contests).
If the results are checked many CBA players are among the top finalists.

To "protect" the piano accordion, in the last few years, competitions created a seperate (!) competition for piano accordionists. This is in my opinion the wrong way, all should compete in 1 league.
Then we shall taste the pudding.

 

[Anyanka]

By the way, the original saying was "the proof of the pudding is in the eating", and proof means test rather than evidence...

Just saying.

 

[squeezeboy]

In my own opinion it is a matter of choice. The proof is in the pudding and when someone can show me or let me hear that CBA players at the top level are better than top level PA players because their instrument is superior then I will believe the CBA is a better instrument. I just have a feel for buttons rather than the keyboard.

Its not about being a better player, its about using a keyboard that offers many advantages in terms of simplicity, practicality and speed.

 

[Deleted member 48]

The proof of the pudding is ... the international accordion competitions, like the Coupe Mondiale editions.
Here is the official website:
http://www.coupemondiale.org/coupe_index.htm

If you have the time, you can look for the last decade who were the top finalists in all categories.
One can click per year and browse all the pages, there are many photos online showing the keyboard layouts (C-system, B-system, piano accordion).
This contest is international, with participants coming from all over the world. The music pieces to be played are artist level.

The last years Chinese CBA players are on the rise in the final results rankings, Russians and Eastern European accordionists still are in the top.
Music competitions and the final results are no exact math, but the pudding can be spicy.

 

[squeezeboy]

If you place your right hand over a PA keyboard, and count how many notes you can reach without extending your fingers, most people will be within one octave, sometimes less if your fingers are short.

Now do the same with a CBA keyboard.

That's ergonomy!

 

[Russ]

Yeah i know, I am a chromatic player, I have heard all these arguments before, ad infinitum, But the winner of the 2013 coupe mondial was a PA player followed by a number of chromatic players. That there is a mix is my point - If the CBA was so superior there would not be any PAs in the competition at all. I believe the contestents would wind up in the same positions whether they played CBA or PA. Would Ionica Minune be a better player or do more with the accordion if he played a CBA? I don't believe choosing a CBA over a PA or a C system over a B system etc. will in the end make you a better player or limit your musical ability (and this in the end is what it is all about).

 

[Deleted member 48]

Agree here with Squeezeboy's point of view:
"I know there are lots of virtuosi PA players out there, but I can only imagine what they could do if they had a better keyboard layout in their hands!"

Individual talent is a factor to be isolated from the keyboard layout of a musical instrument.
Otherwise we risk to confuse and mix up different elements in the analysis.
To compare elements, we need first to separate talent from the layout system.

I agree with Russ a non talented accordion player will fail on both CBA and PA layouts.

 

[Bill V]

Why does there need to be an argument about it,you play what suits ,I don't have an inferiority problem because I have piano keyboard it was a natural progression coming from a piano background.I get enough of a challenge playing classical guitar with its finger busting positions,I love all three instruments which is why I have not mastered any !Button boxes some have more notes are more compact size for size,that's a plus,faster maybe a top PA player faster if they took on buttons and so on, debatable,but that's what a forum is for,

 

[Anyanka]

It is really important to not confuse 'I prefer' with 'it is better'. The latter statement really would need some scientific study, double blind experiments carried out on an infinite number of monkeys playing an infinite number of squeezeboxes, perhaps.

I feel that my playing has improved tremendously by switching from PA to buttons. However, some other people on here have said that the CBA layouts confused them, and they prefer piano keyboard even after trying both. Thank heavens (or Castelfidardo) that we have different systems for different preferences/abilities!

 

[squeezeboy]

Going from a sequential piano keyboard to a CBA sure requires a bit of adapting, but once you get the picture about the buttons it becomes very easy to find your way around: minor 3rd going up and down, semi-tone between rows. Its all about math! Need to go a fifth up? Next row, two buttons further down. Works from any button!
There are nice diagrams on the The Cipher web site, for example:
http://www.thecipher.com/cba_c_and_b_system_triads.html

 

[Glenn]

If you've had 40 years of successful piano playing and want to start playing the accordion, what keyboard would you suggest?

 

[squeezeboy]

If youve had 40 years of successful piano playing and want to start playing the accordion, what keyboard would you suggest?

Being a good piano player does not mean you would instantly be able to play the same tunes on a piano accordion

Different instrument dynamics.

Also, the left hand needs to learn how to use a Stradella bass.

I would choose a CBA!

BTW, I have been playing the piano for 20+ years...

 

[Bill V]

Accordion RH was no problem to me as a piano player, learning the LH is the same for CBA or PA.There was bellows control that was the hard bit for me getting the squeeze and pull in the right place.The guitar helped the accordion LH I found,the change over was much easier because of previous experience of playing and reading music.I go from one to another instrument and the muscle memory sets up for each instrument.Having played since I was eight have had 70 yrs of messing about with musical instruments.Free bass would have been nice but that did not happen.

 

[Russ]

I could not agree with Anyanka more: Thank heavens (or Castelfidardo) that we have different systems for different preferences/abilities!
Although I think that it does not matter what your ability is you can reach the same level of musicianship on either keyboard.

I dont believe however that I can only imagine what they (virtuoso PA players) could do if they had a better keyboard layout in their hands I can not imagine better than genius.

Would a CBA keyboard allow this young man to perform better than this?


Unless the ergonomics allow for better playing and better expression of the music it does not really matter what keyboard you choose. While there are certainly advantages to the CBA keyboard, there is no evidence that the ergonomics of a CBA keyboard would make anyone or allow any one to be a better player.

One thing we do know for sure is that there are both virtuoso PA and CBA players

 

[Glenn]

If you've had 40 years successful CBA accordion playing and want to start with the piano, what keyboard would you suggest?

 

[Anyanka]

Just as an illustration of my earlier statement: my older daughter recently decided that she wanted to play a squeezebox (she's very much into folk music). We were in the lovely position of being able to give her a small piano accordion, a 3-row B-system CBA and a big old melodeon to take away & try out. Although she had had piano lessons for several years as a child, she discarded the PA immediately, and after a couple of weeks settled on melodeon because she just found it easy and natural. I've now bought her a second-hand box of her own, and am happy that she's making music because I know how good it feels.
I would recommend to anyone who starts out on music to try as many different instruments as possible, and go by intuition & instinct in the choice rather than advice and theory!