123dwight
Member
Is a three row accordion severely limited compared to a four or five row instrument? Would a person pick up bad habits if he learned on three rows?
-
-
We're having a little contest, running until 15th May. Please feel free to enter - see the thread in the "I Did That" section of the forum. Don't be shy, have a go!
CBA- Three rows or five?
- Thread starter 123dwight
- Start date
Jaime_Dergut
Active member
Save your time, just save money for a 5 row instrument.
Is not that technically you are "limited" is just a matter of doing a favor to your hand.
The 4th, 5th row will help you get more comfortable positions for your fingers, so you don't have to do painful stretchings when you only have 3 rows.
So, that's it. Unless you are really stubborn, like learning through pain, or want to practice yoga on your fingers, go for a 5 row instrument.
Is not that technically you are "limited" is just a matter of doing a favor to your hand.
The 4th, 5th row will help you get more comfortable positions for your fingers, so you don't have to do painful stretchings when you only have 3 rows.
So, that's it. Unless you are really stubborn, like learning through pain, or want to practice yoga on your fingers, go for a 5 row instrument.
Snoopz
Member
IIRC there are two schools on this site: those that say "only use the three outermost rows unless you really, really have to use more to get a comfortable fingering at highest speeds" (@Tom may be one of those, but I may be wrong) and the other group: "just get the biggest instrument you possibly can, or you will be missing features lateron", like @Jaime_Dergut
I myself am not decided yet. FWIW I'm playing three rows and it's enough for now.
I myself am not decided yet. FWIW I'm playing three rows and it's enough for now.
I started with a simple 3 row but soon afterwards got one with 6.
Mostly the extra rows help when the music demands more fluidity and they do help avoid some of the gymnastics with chords, I am finding.
Row 6 gets little use but 4&5 get into the act quite often.
Jaime_Dergut
Active member
I didn't say that. I said get a 5 row layout and do a favor to your fingers, unless that doesn't matter.
I played the 3 rows myself, and it was fine to play very basic songs, but that only lasted until you have to do longer stretches at faster speeds, with the use of weaker fingers.
If you are going to invest money on instrument, do it for one that is guaranteed to satisfy all your needs at once.
A virtuoso can make music out of the lamest instruments and weirdest techniques, but someone who is just learning needs a good quality and comfortable instrument so they don't lose motivation while learning, which can easily happen with poor sound and pain in your joins/fingers.
Snoopz
Member
Okay, this is where we are different. I got my Hohner Amati IIIM from dak for a very reasonable price, just to see whether CBA is for me or not. Before that I was thinking more in the direction of Hohner Atlantic IV de luxe (the oldest model) or Atlanta (CBA version of the Atlantic), but I'm actually quite happy with my decision. Should I decide to not continue with CBA, I don't have a very big investment that I need to recoup (i can just keep the Amati or give it away or whatever). And should I decide to continue, I have a very much better view of what I need in a bigger instrument.
SteveBox
Active member
One reason for a three row is to get the smallest, lightest weight CBA possible. I have one of those built into a three-row melodeon case and use this for Irish and other folk music. It has a 24 button bass using open chords, not a Stradella bass. However, if size and weight are not an issue, the five row would be more versatile, especially for other types of music. There is a traditional French school that primarily plays four row instruments. Their philosophy is that you play mostly on three rows (with minimal use of the thumb) and use the fourth row as a helper row for difficult fingering situations.
From past reading here I understand it varies between C and B system. For C system I'm finding though I have a 4 row box I only use the 4th row incredibly rarely, and don't strictly need to do that. But I believe for B system the extra rows make much more of a difference.
Which system are you looking to use @123dwight?
Which system are you looking to use @123dwight?
That's what I'm playing and finding
But this is for C system. I think the situation is quite different for B system players, where the extra rows make much more of a difference.
SteveBox
Active member
Another thing to know about choosing a CBA is that in addition to deciding on the number of rows and whether C-system or B-system, they also come with different button sizes and spacing.
The French style usually has smaller buttons (14-15mm), typically all of the same color, and probably C-system only and most commonly 4-row. (But I have seen 3 and 5 row in this style.)
The International or Continental style has larger buttons (16-17mm) and are typically colored black and white to match the color of the same notes on a piano. I don't think I have ever seen a 4-row in this style.
The difference in button size/spacing is only a few millimeters per button, but over the length of the keyboard it adds up. There is probably no compelling advantage or disadvantage to either larger or smaller buttons. It is just what you get used to playing.
The French style usually has smaller buttons (14-15mm), typically all of the same color, and probably C-system only and most commonly 4-row. (But I have seen 3 and 5 row in this style.)
The International or Continental style has larger buttons (16-17mm) and are typically colored black and white to match the color of the same notes on a piano. I don't think I have ever seen a 4-row in this style.
The difference in button size/spacing is only a few millimeters per button, but over the length of the keyboard it adds up. There is probably no compelling advantage or disadvantage to either larger or smaller buttons. It is just what you get used to playing.
Last edited:
Wether you have a three, four or five row box you'll still find that you favour certain keys....I'm not sure wether that may be related to left hand balance and dynamics though....also a five row is more likely to be 120 bass and a three row perhaps only 60 , so this again is going to alter the dynamic...
A smaller box is definitely more comfortable to play ...
As to French small buttons vs large continental type it has been said that as the French traditionally played with the thumb as an anchor on the rail of the keyboard then the buttons were smaller to accommodate fingers only...
The larger buttons allow easier and less clumsy use of the thumb...
I'm happy playing a four row French layout but often practice on a five row continental layout.....
Id say three rows is a slight handicap, four rows a necessity and five rows are a luxury....
Each to their own, different horses courses etc..you pays your money after you've made your choice
A smaller box is definitely more comfortable to play ...
As to French small buttons vs large continental type it has been said that as the French traditionally played with the thumb as an anchor on the rail of the keyboard then the buttons were smaller to accommodate fingers only...
The larger buttons allow easier and less clumsy use of the thumb...
I'm happy playing a four row French layout but often practice on a five row continental layout.....
Id say three rows is a slight handicap, four rows a necessity and five rows are a luxury....
Each to their own, different horses courses etc..you pays your money after you've made your choice
SteveBox
Active member
That makes sense. I think the French button sizing is identical to that of diatonic melodeons, and those are usually played the same way, thumb as an anchor and only fingers on the buttons. (You don't really need a thumb to play a melodeon, with two notes on each button, but you need it to anchor the accordion from shifting around with the frequent bellows reversals.) I would guess the French CBA design as well as the traditional playing technique was derived from melodeons.
Last edited:
Alexander Skliarov won the Coupe Mondiale in 1971, playing a 3 row bayan. So he was certainly not "severely limited" by his 3 row instrument.
But 5 rows are so common now that if you get a 3 row CBA and later decide to sell it you may find that very difficult.
I have a 3-row accordion myself for show purposes and I get along reasonably for the sing-along tunes I intended it for. My "serious" instrument is a 4-row one (not by choice but happened to be what I got), and the 4th row mainly gets into use for chords and some runs and trills. Essentially sightreading is not overly enthused with the availability of alternatives, but if you sightread an F major chord (broken or straight), the fourth row will come into play pretty naturally. Other than that, alternative fingerings come into play for me mostly when repeatedly practising a passage and deciding that this isn't it yet.
This actually happens more often to me with the free bass (which only has 3 rows for me) where the issue is one of "pivoting" to a non-obvious finger in order to avoid running out of fingers later. Of course this does work similarly with the right hand, but additional rows may help avoiding that complication.
I don't think I ever needed 5 rows so far for anything even on instruments that had them, but yes, 3 rows is limiting. Nowadays comparatively small 5-rowers are quite more common than they were in the past. So if you are open to playing older instruments (because they are lookers and/or more affordable), being able to deal with 3 rows is helpful.
123dwight
Member
I'm planning to use c-system. There seem to be a better deals on low cost B system, but B seems to have a better upgrade path for those buying instruments in Western countries.
Jaime_Dergut
Active member
And that's fine, but @123dwight is asking for advice.
I am just saying, get a 5 rows instrument if you want to make sure you are comfortable while learning.
Is not that it is going to make much of a difference on price anyway. Usually 3 and 5 rows instruments, brand new, cost the same.
Snoopz
Member
You have a point there. When considering new instruments it doesn't make as much difference as with used ones.
mrkeelermr
Member
Figure I’d share my perspective as a beginner who plays a 3-row instrument, for what it’s worth.
With a 3-row instrument, each button on the right hand side corresponds to a unique note on the staff, leaving aside enharmonics. I have found this useful because I can form a one-to-one mental map between the notes on the staff and the buttons on the right hand manual. There is only one button that produces a middle C on the right hand side of such an instrument, for example. While I have far fewer fingering options than I would with a 5 row instrument, I would contend that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Constraining the space of possibilities makes mastering it more manageable.
I’ll make an analogy from stringed instruments, since I have much more experience with those. For example, I would not recommend a beginner bass guitarist start out on a 6-string bass guitar, even though compared to a 4-string bass guitar it has much greater flexibility in terms of fingering options, chord voicing options, an so on. It’s honestly just too much for the vast majority of beginners and they would find it overwhelming and possibly frustrating. I’d rather they start with a less flexible instrument, master their fundamentals there, then upgrade in the future when (and if) they feel limited.
That being said, @Jaime_Dergut is correct about the merits of a 5-row instrument. I don’t disagree but wanted to share some of the merits of a 3-row instrument from my perspective.
With a 3-row instrument, each button on the right hand side corresponds to a unique note on the staff, leaving aside enharmonics. I have found this useful because I can form a one-to-one mental map between the notes on the staff and the buttons on the right hand manual. There is only one button that produces a middle C on the right hand side of such an instrument, for example. While I have far fewer fingering options than I would with a 5 row instrument, I would contend that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Constraining the space of possibilities makes mastering it more manageable.
I’ll make an analogy from stringed instruments, since I have much more experience with those. For example, I would not recommend a beginner bass guitarist start out on a 6-string bass guitar, even though compared to a 4-string bass guitar it has much greater flexibility in terms of fingering options, chord voicing options, an so on. It’s honestly just too much for the vast majority of beginners and they would find it overwhelming and possibly frustrating. I’d rather they start with a less flexible instrument, master their fundamentals there, then upgrade in the future when (and if) they feel limited.
That being said, @Jaime_Dergut is correct about the merits of a 5-row instrument. I don’t disagree but wanted to share some of the merits of a 3-row instrument from my perspective.
A less than perfect analogy in my opinion since a 6-string bass guitar mainly offers additional range, not additional redundancy. It would be more like recommending to a beginner not to venture beyond the 4th fret because all notes (apart from on the highest-pitched string, of course) can be played in lower positions. Also "chord-voicing options" for a bass guitar?
mrkeelermr
Member
Agreed, it is an imperfect analogy. Was only attempting to illustrate my point that a more “limited” instrument is not necessarily a bad thing.
Getting a bit further off topic but yes, speaking from many years of experience as a bassist, basses (partularly bass guitars) can play chords and it can be tasteful and musical. A 6-string gives you a lot more options for voicing that will actually work in a mix or ensemble context.
Here’s an example off the top of my head, a fantastic performance by the Hiromi Uehara Trio. At about 6:00, the bassist Tony Grey is playing chords (technically, sustained arpeggios in this instance for the pedants) and it sounds great to my ears.
