ergonomics for CBA and PA

[Jim the box]

PA is easy.........CBA is easy..........melodeon is the spawn of Satan. :x
I have B/C melodeon and I can never find the note I looking for, I swear that someone inside is moving the reeds form pallet to pallet while I am trying to play it. :hb

I would recommend to anyone who starts out on music to try as many different instruments as possible, and go by intuition & instinct in the choice rather than advice and theory!

Good advice Anyanka

All joking aside - I love the simplicity of the CBA over the PA but I will not give up either as they both have equal appeal to me. :ch

 

[squeezeboy]

PA is easy.........CBA is easy..........melodeon is the spawn of Satan. :x

If you play single-row or fourth-tuned 2 or 3 rows melodeons (e.g. D/G, C/F, A/D/G) its not so bad.
But I agree that B/C requires some adapting... Its like a C melodeon with an additional row of accidentals. Its chromatic but not in the same was as a CBA.

 

[donn]

I just went through this thread, and it sounds like we all support the proposition that you should play whatever style keyboard you like best, but at the same time there's a premise that the chromatic button system has only advantages, compared to the piano, if you should happen to like it the best. Like, please play whatever you want, but it's kind of too bad if you want to play the piano keyboard, because it's inherently inferior - and there's no question in anyone's mind about this? The keyboard layout that has been predominant in western music for half a millennium, compared to a skewed rectangular array that anyone could have thought of anywhere along the line?

I play chromatic button, but I don't believe that. As squeezeboy commented, "It's all about math!" But what if we aren't all about math, ever think about that?

 

[dunlustin]

Perhaps it's worth putting into the equation the fact that whereas the piano keyboard was designed to strike (and damp?) strings, the button 'boards in their various forms are designed to open valves?
Isn't it significant that the PA took off about the time when playing the piano was more or less a required social skill?
I find it fascinating that PA's became popular in the USA while buttons were seen as "un-American" - hence the need for "finto" PA's to hide the player's alien leanings.
It's curious how such passions are aroused.
Oh, and while I'm wondering, is the accordion the only instrument whose enthusiasts spend so much time thinking about what it cannot do?

 

[squeezeboy]

Note that the first accordions had buttons, not piano keys!

Also, the word "accordion" was coined because at the time, the instrument was bisonoric and worked like a harmonica, i.e. all notes were in "accord" for a given direction of the bellows. The evolution towards the piano and chromatic accordions made the instrument to become unisonoric, so technically it's not even an "accordion"!

Adapting a piano keyboard to the instrument was a brilliant marketing idea at the time, as mentioned above, because a piano was in almost every household, at least in North America, and there was at least one person playing the piano in every family. Musicians had access to a new, portable instrument almost instantly.

In Canada there might be a 10 to 1 ratio of PA v. CBA players, and the CBA is often associated with French and Russian music. Go to any accordion shop in Toronto or Montreal and you will spot a only few buttons accordions (CBA or diatonic) among rows of PA's on the shelves.

Although I studied piano for a few years and play other instruments too, I could never enjoy playing a PA as I found the keyboard too uncomfortable and cumbersome to use. Switching to a CBA was an instant revelation.

But, as they say, your mileage may vary...

 

[Glenn]

If one considers the traditional church organ, a machine of immense beauty and cost, I wonder why they never developed a button keyboard. It would have made it more compact, more ergonomic and just think what Johan Sabastian would have written if they had been as inventive as those cunning accordion makers. After all, the keyboard merely opens valves like an accordion. Might be a bit fiddly for the foot board but playing in bare feet is not ungodly.


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[barkis]

Oh, and while Im wondering, is the accordion the only instrument whose enthusiasts spend so much time thinking about what it cannot do?

Bulls-eye!

 

[squeezeboy]

Oh, and while Im wondering, is the accordion the only instrument whose enthusiasts spend so much time thinking about what it cannot do?

Bulls-eye! [/quote]

We spend time thinking about what can be done better

 

[Jim the box]

I have looked through the posts in this thread and it seems that no one has mentioned the fact that the keyboard on an accordion is perpendicular to that of piano?
Is it therefore the same to play, more difficult or easier?

And likewise if the CBA keyboard was 90 degrees to the norm (i.e. flat) what difference would that make?

 

[dunlustin]

Electronic keyboards with CBA type layout were not uncommon in France in the 80s.
This allowed the (lead) accordionist to switch to a more modern (?) instrument during a performance without having to master the piano layout.
Who could criticise their reluctance?
I have a feeling it would not be a particularly comfortable layout - but that's pure prejudice.

 

[squeezeboy]

I have looked through the posts in this thread and it seems that no one has mentioned the fact that the keyboard on an accordion is perpendicular to that of piano?
Is it therefore the same to play, more difficult or easier?

The fingering is the same, and since the hand is also perpendicular to the keyboard, position is not an issue.

Now for the look, I always found PAs to be unesthetic :shock:

And likewise if the CBA keyboard was 90 degrees to the norm (i.e. flat) what difference would that make?

Again, its not about the position, its about the layout and how easy fingering can be, especially for transposing.

BTW there have been similar keyboards for the piano, one was called the Janko keyboard, it never really caught on because people who learned on a traditional keyboard did not want to have to re-learn a new method of playing.

 

[donn]

And likewise if the CBA keyboard was 90 degrees to the norm (i.e. flat) what difference would that make?

Again, its not about the position, its about the layout and how easy fingering can be, especially for transposing.

That should apply to any instrument with a keyboard. If the chromatic button layout were all advantages and no disadvantages, weve had eons to figure that out and switch, but one can see little evidence of that, outside of the accordion, a relatively recently introduced keyboard instrument where maybe the switch to piano keyboard just hasnt had enough to time to completely take over. Maybe there are advantages to the piano keyboard that were not accounting for?

 

[squeezeboy]

That should apply to any instrument with a keyboard. If the chromatic button layout were all advantages and no disadvantages, weve had eons to figure that out and switch, but one can see little evidence of that, outside of the accordion, a relatively recently introduced keyboard instrument where maybe the switch to piano keyboard just hasnt had enough to time to completely take over. Maybe there are advantages to the piano keyboard that were not accounting for?

Advantages I would see for PA:
- sequential keyboard
- easy to visualize scales
- familiarity with the piano which is somehow a universal musical instrument

Disadvantage of PA
- size
- 12 different fingerings for any given material, one for each key or tonic.

Advantages I would see for CBA layouts:
- density of keys, therefore smaller, shorter keyboard than PA for same number of octaves
- 1 fingering for any given material and tonic key
- looks nice!

Disadvantages:
- ???

 

[Zevy]

<FONT font=Garamond><SIZE size=125>This thread began as a discussion about ergonomics, or the comfort and safety of one system over the other, and has evolved into a quarrel that sounds more like mine is better than yours. There are always advantages of one particular method over another, and we should respect that. I personally feel that a lot of players choose their accordion based on the culture of their home. I recently saw a clip of an accordionist who was a virtuoso on both CBA an PA. He demonstrated pieces that were idiomatic to each system. I think its time to call it quits.

Im just sayin...

 

[JIM D.]

Right On !! Zevy; I've hesitated to respond to this post as both systems have their advantages and dis-advantages. The simple beauty of our present day accordions is that you can chose the keyboard and layout of your choice. Whatever your keyboard preference , the result is the same free reeds are sounding and sound just as entertaining.

 

[donn]

Note that the piano keyboard isn't 2 dimensional, and I think that's an important feature. It's logically 2 dimensional, and you could easily make a flat keyboard by removing the white key surfaces where they parallel the black. I wouldn't be surprised if piano players would object that sometimes you play the white keys up there, but my feeling is that the loss of 3D shape would be a worse problem. No one would want to play a flat keyboard.

 

[barkis]

I recently saw a clip of an accordionist who was a virtuoso on both CBA an PA. He demonstrated pieces that were idiomatic to each system.[/size][/font][/quote]
Do you have links to this? It sounds interesting.

 

[JIM D.]

I really think Ive posted this before , but this is again an example of the piano keyboard played with the right hand and the left hand playing a converter bass which is a CBA button keyboard in reverse. --- -- Now hows that for the best of both worlds ??

 

[JIM D.]

And this without midi voices and only free reeds -- -- she takes a left hand lead around 1.60

 

[Zevy]

Do you have links to this? It sounds interesting.

<FONT font=Garamond><SIZE size=125><COLOR color=#0040FF>Im really sorry, but I have no idea where it is. It was very good. I wish Id kept it.