Dot registrations in treble keyboard

[wirralaccordion]

Looking at these two 72 bass accordions on Ebay I would say that the Chanson accordions M dots are placed incorrectly and should be like the Hohner accordion. What do you think or can there really be three differently tuned M reeds?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chanson-...136446?hash=item3b039488be:g:VUIAAOSwHwJaVnoe

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hohner-B...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

 

[debra]

Maybe theoretically you are right, but the two dot placement schemes are often used as equivalent.
In music notation software (like Musescore) you can generate both notations. The difference in notation only becomes meaningful when you have an accordion with MMM reeds. In many cases they do offer an MM register that is like on the Hohner schema and they could offer a different MM register that is like on the Chanson accordion (but often they don't). When there are only two M reed sets both notations are equivalent.
When I arrange music I differentiate between the two notations, using the Hohner notation for no or low tremolo and the Chanson notation for more tremolo.

 

[wirralaccordion]

So I suppose you would have to assume that the Chanson, being a cheaper accordion is LMM and they have been careless in marking the dots in the way they have?

I am not sure that I understand what is meant by an LMM with no tremolo. Would this not be the same as LM if the two MMs were tuned to be the same frequency?

 

[Geronimo]

I don't think that the horizontal position of the reed set dots is supposed to carry pitch meaning. It is very common to write them symmetrical. You would not expect a 3-reed tremolo to have the same pitch difference between lower tremolo and main reed and higher tremolo and main reed: it is much more common to have the lower tremolo reed significantly closer to the main reed than the higher one. Having them at equal distance would produce some quite slow beating effects.

What is somewhat more common is for unsymmetrical placement (even of a lone dot) to indicate placement inside and outside of cassotto. In that case, the far left dot may be employed in the "in cassotto" meaning.

 

[JIM D.]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accordion_reed_ranks_and_switches
https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/accordion-registrations/

 

[Geronimo]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accordion_reed_ranks_and_switches
https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/accordion-registrations/

Well, two widely conflicting descriptions. In this particular case, I am afraid that the Wikipedia author likely overgeneralized from what he has been seeing on some German instruments and this is more a description of how he feels the registers should be labelled rather than how they actually tend to be (particularly when looking beyond current-day Hohner and Weltmeister). Morino himself would never used asymmetrical layouts for the button symbols: you either get one dot in the middle or two (or three when applicable) centered.

Now my own LMMM instrument would not have required unsymmetrical symbols either way since the two tremolo reeds can not be used in isolation, but alas it has no switches with symbols anyway. But the Morino Artiste VID in LMMH does have combination registers with symbols and those are symmetrical.

Separate from the symbols on the instruments are the symbols in scores. Again, I see symmetrical ones much more often than unsymmetrical ones.

 

[debra]

...
I am not sure that I understand what is meant by an LMM with no tremolo. Would this not be the same as LM if the two MMs were tuned to be the same frequency?

MM with no tremolo is mostly (but not exclusively) used on cassotto instruments (most with convertor). The M in cassotto has a different sound than the M outside of cassotto so you have different sound possibilities like LM with M in cassotto versus LM with M outside of cassotto. MM without tremolo produces more sound volume than a single M and so in LMM without tremolo the M is emphasized more versus the L than with an LM register.

Of course another reality is that with each instrument sounding differently you get many more sound possibilities in an ensemble with different instruments... but once they are all mixed together that richness disappears with generic arrangements and can only be brought out in arrangements made specifically for the instruments that are in the mix.

 

[Geronimo]

...
I am not sure that I understand what is meant by an LMM with no tremolo. Would this not be the same as LM if the two MMs were tuned to be the same frequency?

MM with no tremolo is mostly (but not exclusively) used on cassotto instruments (most with convertor). The M in cassotto has a different sound than the M outside of cassotto so you have different sound possibilities like LM with M in cassotto versus LM with M outside of cassotto.

MM without tremolo produces more sound volume than a single M and so in LMM without tremolo the M is emphasized more versus the L than with an LM register.

Its not just that: a nulltremolo is sort of a chorus effect: the phase relation between the two reeds is not completely rigid so the sound quality is a lot more pliable and expressive than that of a single reed.

I think I once had a registerless 2-reed Rubin 6 bayan here (the only registration was the converter switch) with that kind of setup. The problem, of course, is that as soon as it is slightly out of tune, slow scales become quite noticeably irregular in sound quality. Stronger tremolo variants deteriorate quite more graciously over time.

I get somewhere close to that nulltremolo effect on my LMMM accordion by choking the tremolo reed sliders off on MMM until there is just more left than with M on its own.

Conversely, the change from cassotto to noncassotto on my instrument is done by changing from L (the only reed in déclassement) to M and adapting the octave. Since my M reaches almost as low as other peoples L and my L reaches higher than most peoples M, this is not just an academical option but rather something I have to do all the time.

Of course another reality is that with each instrument sounding differently you get many more sound possibilities in an ensemble with different instruments... but once they are all mixed together that richness disappears with generic arrangements and can only be brought out in arrangements made specifically for the instruments that are in the mix.

This can in some respects work better by using unsuitable music: we played an arrangement of the Miss Marple theme for salon orchestra where the cello part reaches down to A2 which is exactly the lowest note of my accordions MMM range, and the MMM in this low range sounds fabulous on this instrument (the corresponding MM on the Morino Artiste VID is considerably less endearing in that range). Air usage may be quite noticeable for accordion, but then you need to change bow direction on a cello even more often. So by having material not arranged for accordion orchestra and thus already streamlined to standard sound qualities on standard ranges, I actually got a better deal out for my instrument than otherwise likely.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

...
I am not sure that I understand what is meant by an LMM with no tremolo. Would this not be the same as LM if the two MMs were tuned to be the same frequency?

MM with no tremolo is mostly (but not exclusively) used on cassotto instruments (most with convertor). The M in cassotto has a different sound than the M outside of cassotto so you have different sound possibilities like LM with M in cassotto versus LM with M outside of cassotto. MM without tremolo produces more sound volume than a single M and so in LMM without tremolo the M is emphasized more versus the L than with an LM register.

Of course another reality is that with each instrument sounding differently you get many more sound possibilities in an ensemble with different instruments... but once they are all mixed together that richness disappears with generic arrangements and can only be brought out in arrangements made specifically for the instruments that are in the mix.

Ive heard the following story about a particular manufacturer in which a particular dealer has a large financial interest. I cannot verify the story, so Im not mentioning names, but it goes something like this:

Accordions from this manufacturer are sent to the dealer with two or three M reeds tuned so close together that there is almost no tremolo. So, the buyer comes back to the dealer who suggests getting them retuned to get more tremolo. Bingo! More profit for the dealer. Seems like some customers try a floor model and assume that the one they ordered will be just like the floor model.

You can guess the moral of this story.

Alan