dot readers v by earists v by memory

[Glenn]

incidentally, a word Ive come across before to describe what many concert pianists would do in the long ago days, when they would precede pieces of music with a few chords and notes, presumably to change to the key of the new piece. I collect piano recordings, and I have just a few very old ones that preserve this noodling.

The great cadenzas of professional musicians are certainly worth preserving.
Some of the great ones have been preserved in writing but I guess many are simply improvised to a pre-determined underlying plan (got to be some plan or the conductor will not know when its time for him to raise his baton).

 

[george garside]

How about the inbetween way (what the Dutch would call the Polder Model).
By this I mean those that learn from the sheet music but sort of abandon it later on, only using it as a comfort blanket.
I fear I fall into this neither one nor tother group.


I think that is essential if a dotist wishes to learn to play by ear as some, but not all readers just use/need the written stuff as a crutch when unbknown to them it is already fully stored in the brain. One way to reduce the need for a crutch is to sit on a swivel stool- start off the tune with the dots and after the first few bars turn oneself and box round to face away from the dots. On similer lines many earists use a little book or bit of paper stuck on top of the box with the notes of the first 2 or three bars written out in plain English eg GDG,F#CD etc etc as a means of getting a tune started.

.
Sometimes with the accordion I have a complete mental block on what key to start with a piece I know well.
I then open the sheet music, scan a few bars and then I can start, after which the sheet music is hardly looked at.
I think Im still running on 64k whilst everyone else is in the Gbytes. :!:

This happens to me frequently and is mainly, for me, about not being able to start at the beginning! I can often start somewhere else in a tune so I start wherever comes to mind and whip quickly through the right notes in the right order until I come to the beginning - then I am ready to play it properly from the beginning!

This may be because a fundamental difference between learning from dots and learning by ear is that from the dots it is absolutely normal to start at the beginning - where else!.. However when learning by ear trying to grasp a tune in the order it will be played is often hard work so the process is started by playing the bit of the tune that comes to mind ( like a sort of jingle) maybe a couple of bars, maybe a whole line, maybe the verse of A part, maybe the chorus or B part . The whole is built up piecemeal rather like a jigsaw until the whole is playable. Then the job of sorting the dynaics, phrasing, harmony, rhythm etc starts.
iAnother useful hint for by earists or dotists wishing to dabble in other waters is pocking and prodding - which is simply find the first note ( of a tune or part of a tune) and then think higher or lower anad prod up or down the scale to find the next note which is often not far away!. This becomes quite intuitive with a bit of practice and if one of the next notes.. you find is different from other versions of the tune but sounds nice you have simply done some re arranging. Im not at all keen on the word improvising as to me that has connotations of classicaly trained people doing domething a bit naughty!) To me improvising, rearranging or whatever you want to call it is just part and parcel of what the traditional brigade se e as aan essential part of playing good music! ---I await a shot accrosss the
bows from those of a classical disposition and probably deserve it!


george

 

[goldtopia]

Playing from sheet music ensures that you play every note correctly. I can't play the accordion by ear but it is very useful for singalongs and busking whereas sheet music can get blown away or the stand knocked over.

 

[Pippa]

This may be because a fundamental difference between learning from dots and learning by ear is that from the dots it is absolutely normal to start at the beginning - where else!.. However when learning by ear trying to grasp a tune in the order it will be played is often hard work so the process is started by playing the bit of the tune that comes to mind ( like a sort of jingle) maybe a couple of bars, maybe a whole line, maybe the verse of A part, maybe the chorus or B part . The whole is built up piecemeal rather like a jigsaw until the whole is playable.

This is also what it's like trying to remember a piece that you learnt years ago (from the dots), when you don't have the music in front of you

 

[george garside]

Playing from sheet music ensures that you play every note correctly. I cant play the accordion by ear but it is very useful for singalongs and busking whereas sheet music can get blown away or the stand knocked over.

Bill
a good traditional/folk musician does indeed play every note correctly but sometimes differently!!

george

 

[Johnny J]

I'm not sure if it makes much diference to me whether I've learned a tune originally from the dots or by ear and the "starting in the middle" phenomenon also happens to me not infrequently. However, I will often just run through the tune very quickly in my head first. That way, nobody else knows. :lol:

I think the "By Memory" method needs a bit of further discussion as I'm sure that this description may mean different things to different people.

For instance, I rarely make a conscious effort to memorise a tune. I can do that but they(the tunes) usually just seep into my memory through playing them regularly over a period of time. Those which I forget later, I probably haven't just played often enough for various reasons... maybe I don't like them quite so much or haven't had the same opportunity. There are some tunes which I never forget and they come back to me after several years sometimes albeit I need to play them through two or three times to remember most of the details and/or any subtleties I may have used in their performance.

Now, how do we all actually learn tunes "by memory"?
While I'm learning from "the dots", I reckon that I'm also learning "by ear" from my own playing and it is the latter practice which causes the tune to stick in my memory. I know some people can visualise "the dots" in their heads and/or even finger postions per each "dot" but I don't think like that and I usually go by the sound either from what I hear in my head or from someone else playing the tune.

There is a danger with the above that one may end up playing something a little different from what is written in the original score. So, it's often a good idea to go back to the written music if you are playing with others. Sometimes, this might happen if you've been playing a slightly different(Not necessarily wrong) note from the one on the page from the very start but, more likely, the tune has developed over the years through listening to and playing with other musicians.... what some people call the "folk process".

 

[Johnny J]

I should add that with the accordion, I make a more active effort to remember what I'm doing but that's just because I'm more concerned about learning the mechanics of the instrument as opposed to the actual tunes themselves. I usually get these in my head very quickly but playing them takes a lot longer at my present level.

It's probably cheating but I will often play them through a few times first on the fiddle or mandolin to get them into my head first.

 

[george garside]

I think that there is perhaps bit bit of confusion over terminology . The title of this thread is dot readers v by earists v by memory. To me the th ere are only the first 2 'methods,' that are fundamentally different whilst the third applies to either of the first two. The dot readers reads the dots, processes the visual imput AS IT IS READ and sends it dowm the arm Immediately etc and usually it is not stored in the memory for the simple reason that it doesn't need to be. The byearist on the other hand HAS to store the aural input in the brain ans so always play s from memory - because that is where the tune is as opposed to being on a piece of paper.

Some dot readers aalso consciously or unconsciously store frequently played tunes in the brain but I am not sure whether the storage process comes from the visual input (the dots) or the aural input from repeatedly playing the tune . I suspect its from the latter so some dot readers are also by by earists . And of course some byearists have a look slowly at the dots if there is a bit of the tune they can't quite get by ear.

So whilst there are avid dot readers who would do it no other way and avid byearists who whould do it no other way there is a huge group in the Middlesex regiment who like to do a bit of both!

george

 

[Soulsaver]

I'd agree there are only 2 categories, I think playing from memory is after you've learned it either by dots OR by ear.
But I'm confused by your last comment George: Learning it from the dots and playing it from memory wouldn't make you a by-earist, would it?
I'd have thought the common understanding would be that a earist hears someone else play it and learns from that?

 

[Johnny J]

I think George means (as I have also mentioned in my last post) that you are actually also learning the tune "by ear" from your own playing as you are following the dots.

I'm not sure how much everyone is doing this but I reckon that those with a "good ear" will pick up and remember a tune much quicker this way even if they have just been using the dots.

As I also suggested, different players may "memorise" a tune in different ways and some may even have a visual representation of the dots or sheet music in their heads, finger positions, etc while others(like myself) will think more in terms of the actual sound i.e. what they hear or remember hearing.

 

[george garside]

I think George means (as I have also mentioned in my last post) that you are actually also learning the tune by ear from your own playing as you are following the dots.


thats exactly what I meant simply on the basis that unless a dot player is stone deaf he/she will hear the tune being played and some of this may well be absorbed autoamatically into the brain for storage.

Im not sure how much everyone is doing this but I reckon that those with a good ear will pick up and remember a tune much quicker this way even if they have just been using the dots.

Im not sure whether or not a good ear is necessary as its quite normal and automatic to remember anything we hear over and over again.



As I also suggested, different players may memorise a tune in different ways and some may even have a visual representation of the dots or sheet music in their heads, finger positions, etc while others(like myself) will think more in terms of the actual sound i.e. what they hear or remember hearing.

My view is that learning a tune by ear is mainly down to hearing it many times until it can be hummed or whistled . eg listening to a CD of it in the car etc. I also find it easier to learn a tune with words as the words seem to remind me of the tune. On that basis I sometimes make up a few words to fit the music as an aiad memoire.

george

 

[Anyanka]

Yep, words help - I sometimes have to create a silly lyric incorporating the title of a Morris tune, to help me bring it to the surface when it's needed. E.g "Lucy of Lyne had a very good time..."

 

[Glenn]

Learning a tune is one thing. Learning to play an arrangement is another.
I can generally play a tune after a few goes at it and it sticks in my memory. Even if I have to play it in another key I can usually cope (with a few fluffs).
Learning an arrangement with chords and different voicing needs me to make a concious effort to commit the harmonies to memory.
It is the ability to memorise the arrangement that I admire in some people as it appears fairly effortless to them.

 

[simonking]

I would agree, Glenn. I think most people who can read music could also manage to play a simple tune by ear after a few goes at. I don't know, but George might be equating 'reading music' with 'sight-reading' (i.e. being able to play something to at least 'rehearsal standard' straight from the sheet). I can read music but my sight-reading is crap and always has been. I would find very difficult if not impossible to learn complex arrangments or pieces without the sheet music, whether you have bought it or made a transcription yourself, in which case it's just a convenient method of reminding yourself what to play.

There are a tiny few individuals with truly amazing skills who can play complex pieces perfectly or almost perfectly given only one hearing, but that's probably none of us here.

 

[Johnny J]

There are a tiny few individuals with truly amazing skills who can play complex pieces perfectly or almost perfectly given only one hearing, but thats probably none of us here.

Of course, most of us cant play a complex piece perfectly after one hearing and Id imagine that very few could do it perfectly from the dots first time either unless they were highly trained musicians.

One common pitfall for many ear musicians (Well, for me, at least) is, when playing a tune off the dots for the first time, is to anticipate something which isnt there... i.e. Ill expect a certain sequence of notes as Ive heard similar tunes before and I feel that the tune should go there.
However, those who rely on sight reading a tune dont have the same preconceptions and are unlikely to make that mistake.

 

[simonking]

Of course, most of us cant play a complex piece perfectly after one hearing and Id imagine that very few could do it perfectly from the dots first time either unless they were highly trained musicians.

One common pitfall for many ear musicians (Well, for me, at least) is, when playing a tune off the dots for the first time, is to anticipate something which isnt there... i.e. Ill expect a certain sequence of notes as Ive hearding similar tunes before and I feel that the tune should go there.
However, those who rely on sight reading a tune dont have the same preconceptions and are unlikely to make that mistake.

Thats my point about sight-reading complicated pieces - its a much more advanced skill than simply being able to understand written music.

I have disagree with your second point. Its not really either/or - people who are using written music are almost certainly also listening to what theyre playing and can easily get confused by familiar sequences etc. for the first time at least.

 

[Daveg4otu]

As an ear player I have always envied those who can sightread a sheet of music, most of all because they don't need to know the piece to be able to at least get some idea of what it sounds like.
An totally ear player tends I believe to be lazy, knowing that he can play what he hears reasonably easily, there is little desire to try and read a sheet of music...at least that is how it is with me.

Whatever there is space in this world for all kinds of players....some of the best blues and jazz musicians could not sight read.

 

[donn]

It is the ability to memorise the arrangement that I admire in some people as it appears fairly effortless to them.

Wondering what you mean, though? When I pick up a tune, some chords come along - its almost like I cant play without chords. The point is that Im playing what my ear heard, and my ear says those chords are part of it. But it would certainly be the most minimal arrangement. This would be music in a popular or traditional vein (and not the wonky modal stuff that pop accordionists seem to be into judging from some things you all seem to like, Im talking about rather predictable chords from the scale.)

Havent yet made it a priority to read, on the accordion, but as I read on other instruments, going back to school choir, I can sort of read by ear - i.e., its possible to make out how a simple tune goes, and play what I hear. Its extremely feeble, mind you.

 

[george garside]

This thread seems to have mainly focused on the respective merits of playing by ear or from the dots both of which at their most basic are merely a means of installing the wherewithal of a tune, piece, or whatever you want to call it, in the brain ( the processor). One is a direct visulal route into the processor whilst the other involves transferring info from the built in storage (memory) to the active part of the processor. From that point on both follow the same route i.e messages sent down arms with instructions to fingers as to how to operate the box for the required tune.

Both of these methods also require the addition active listening skills as an integral part of good musicianship

I think of this in terms of ''active continuous feedback loops''

1, (in any order) brain, arm, box, ear,brain, arm, box, ear etc etc.

2. If playing with other musicians an additional concurrant aural loop is required brain, arm, other musician(s) band leader etc, ear, brain, arm , box etc

3. If playing for dancer a concurrant visual loop is required brain, arm , dancers (visual) brain arm box, dancers

4. If accompanying a singer another aural loop comes in concurrently with 1 plus possible 2 & 3 giving a possible concurrant set of 4 feedback loops operating concurrently.

Irrespective of site reading skills or the ability to learn tunes by ear aand memorise them it is finely honed listening skills that put the icing on the cake¬

george

 

[colinm]

Dot reader but I wish I could play by ear, I can only remeber 4 tunes, if I go wrong it,s a disaster, there must be a way to learn to play by ear someone please.
colinm