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Three row chromatic fingering?

Glug

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It doesn't make much difference if you disconnect the bellows at the bass or treble side, you still get access to both ends, you just need a longer screwdriver :)

I always end up taking the reed blocks out so I can put masking tape under them to measure the tuning.
It also allows me to document which key plays which reed so I know where to look if a problem shows up.
And that's the only way I worked out exactly what the bass couplers do on my main box.

Once you've done it once you will see how easy it is.
 
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Glug said:
It doesn't make much difference if you disconnect the bellows at the bass or treble side, you still get access to both ends, you just need a longer screwdriver :)

I always end up taking the reed blocks out so I can put masking tape under them to measure the tuning.
It also allows me to document which key plays which reed so I know where to look if a problem shows up.
And that's the only way I worked out exactly what the bass couplers do on my main box.

Once you've done it once you will see how easy it is.

Ah, OK. I assumed the bellows themselves would be in the way. 

I have much to learn ::)

I've removed about 20 of the base button tops so far. I'm going slowly with a pair of screw pliers and a small improvised silicone grip protector. Not as good as a collet, but I'm taking it slow, and taking a break every few buttons so my mind and eyes are fresh each time. I've only found one really stubbon one so far, which I'll come back to later. I may need a separate set of pliers to carefully grip the stem too, as it's torqueing the pushrods more than I'm comfortable with. I'lll save all those problematic ones while last.
 
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I've not done anymore on the box just yet,still got the rest of the buttons to unscrew, but have done some work on the computer, mapping out the info I was looking for that I couldn't source online.

Hopefully, there's two PDFs attached to this post. The first should be the treble side layout, and the second a list of the fingering patterns for various chords, dependent on where the root note falls.

In fact, lets see if we can embed them ...





... no, seems to be the answer to that

I have yet to map out major scales, minor scales etc, but will be doing that too. I have also managed to map out the bass side of the instrument, and will do similarly with that (scales, runs, and chords). However, I'll probably upload all the bass aspects in a separate thread, to make it easy for someone trying to track down crib sheets for that system.

So the instrument still isn't operational yet, but at least I'm starting to get a clearer picture of how it (and I) should work. ;)
 

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losthobos said:
These maps are for B system...

Correct! We determined mine was B system earlier in the thread, but I should have specified that on the sheets. Apologies for any confusion. I'll be sure to fix that later.
 

losthobos

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My apologies... Hadn't followed all thread... Just remembered in beginning thought it was a cruxianelli c system... Best wishes and good luck with the meccano...
 
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No problem at all, losthobos. I should have made it clear on the sheets anyway. Thanks for the well wishes.

As to the state of play with the sticking keys, everything has changed. I've got about two thirds of the way through removing all the screw-on button caps, and discoverd two gamechangers....

Firstly, none of the keys are sticking anymore! I haven't even taken it apart yet! With the button caps removed, the button stems are sliding very freely through the holes, which means that I don't have to strip it down to straighten any of the pushrods. Maybe it was the felt pads causing problems after all! Or maybe there was some crap lodged between the stem and the inside of the hole.

Secondly, two buttons have dropped right into the casing. In torquing the keys to unscrew the caps, it seem two of the spigots that rest on and push down the valve levers, have briefly twisted round and slipped, so they're now below the lever instead of above it.

*sigh*

So now I don't know if I have to strip it down at all. If I can get those spigots back under the levers, and figure out what was REALLY causing those buttons to stick, the covers can stay on. Or at least until I find any badly tunes reeds or sticking valves.

They're bloody temperamental things these accordions, aren't they?
 
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Well, I made my fingers rather sore by screwing a load of those button tops back on, only for the keys to start sticking again! It's definitely the felt pads causing the issues, but at least I know what it is that I need to fix now, and don't have to completely dismantle it to do so.

As to the two sunken buttons, that was a very easy fix. As they didn't have the caps on those buttons, they'd overtravelled slightly and the valve lever had dropped off the pushrod spigot. Hooking that back on was straight forward (simply press a corresponding key, and lift the sunken pushrod back up), and the issue won't happen again with the button cap in place.

I'll keep spending a few minutes as and when time (and fingertips) allow, I'm a lot happier now I know what the issue is. Obviously, I still have yet to test all the reeds and valves once all the buttons are working properly, so there may still be unpleasant surprises ahead, but I'll just address each issue as it is discovered. So far, I'm still grinning. No additional expense has occurred over the initial low cost purchase, and I've certainly learned a lot about how these things operate whilst deciphering these little teething problems.
 
D

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AimlessWanderer pid=69497 dateline=1579486122 said:
Ive not done anymore on the box just yet,still got the rest of the buttons to unscrew,  but have done some work on the computer, mapping out the info I was looking for that I couldnt source online.

Hopefully, theres two PDFs attached to this post. The first should be the treble side layout, and the second a list of the  fingering patterns for various chords, dependent on where the root note falls.

In fact, lets see if we can embed them ...





... no, seems to be the answer to that :s


I have yet to map out major scales, minor scales etc, but will be doing that too. I have also managed to map out the bass side of the instrument, and will do similarly with that (scales, runs, and chords). However, Ill probably upload all the bass aspects in a separate thread, to make it easy for someone trying to track down crib sheets for that system.

So the instrument still isnt operational yet, but at least Im starting to get a clearer picture of how it (and I) should work. ;)




I also used a similar chord shapes sheet (mine was for C-system CBA) like yours for B-system.
And I found this to be very useful in my CBA study.
I like the way you mark the tonic with a different colour (in red) from the other notes of the chord shape (in blue). I find this to be a good way to visualise inversed chords (first inversion, second inversion ...).

In the first two lines (the major and minor chord shapes), I also added the tonic of the next octave (but, in your case, with a blue color), so I made 4 notes chord shapes for my major and minor chords (with the basic tonic pitch + the tonic pitched an octave higher).

You can also use your shapes to visualise scales in different modes.

What I like is that you dont fill in the names of the notes in every circle, you only indicate the root note. This has also for me been the simplest and easiest way to learn about interval shapes on the CBA.

You can also add sheets to visualise all sorts of intervals between just two notes: the root + a major second , the root + a fourth, .... , and this from the 1st row of buttons, the 2nd row ad the 3rd row.

Thank you for these attachments in your post.
 
M

maugein96

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AimlessWanderer said:
Well, I made my fingers rather sore by screwing a load of those button tops back on, only for the keys to start sticking again! It's definitely the felt pads causing the issues, but at least I know what it is that I need to fix now, and don't have to completely dismantle it to do so.

As to the two sunken buttons, that was a very easy fix. As they didn't have the caps on those buttons, they'd overtravelled slightly and the valve lever had dropped off the pushrod spigot. Hooking that back on was straight forward (simply press a corresponding key, and lift the sunken pushrod back up), and the issue won't happen again with the button cap in place.

I'll keep spending a few minutes as and when time (and fingertips) allow, I'm a lot happier now I know what the issue is. Obviously, I still have yet to test all the reeds and valves once all the buttons are working properly, so there may still be unpleasant surprises ahead, but I'll just address each issue as it is discovered. So far, I'm still grinning. No additional expense has occurred over the initial low cost purchase, and I've certainly learned a lot about how these things operate whilst deciphering these little teething problems.


AW,

Those felt pads are normally quite a distance up from the keyboard, and as such should have no effect on the button travel. If you check the height of the treble buttons from the keyboard the bass buttons should be a similar height up. If the felt pads are so close to the keyboard that they're causing the buttons to stick then something is wrong. It sounds as though the whole bass mechanism may have dropped slightly, but I don't know enough about the inner workings to guess the cause, if indeed that is what has happened. 

Sore fingers are unfortunately a side effect of such adventures as you have undertaken, but I'm sure you'll get it all worked out in the end.
 
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Stephen pid=69557 dateline=1579805860 said:
I also used a similar chord shapes sheet (mine was for C-system CBA) like yours for B-system.
And I found this to be very useful in my CBA study.
I like the way you mark the tonic with a different colour (in red) from the other notes of the chord shape (in blue). I find this to be a good way to visualise inversed chords (first inversion, second inversion ...).

In the first two lines (the major and minor chord shapes), I also added the tonic of the next octave (but, in your case, with a blue color), so I made 4 notes chord shapes for my major and minor chords (with the basic tonic pitch + the tonic pitched an octave higher).

You can also use your shapes to visualise scales in different modes.

What I like is that you dont fill in the names of the notes in every circle, you only indicate the root note. This has also for me been the simplest and easiest way to learn about interval shapes on the CBA.

You can also add sheets to visualise all sorts of intervals between just two notes: the root + a major second , the root + a fourth, .... , and this from the 1st row of buttons, the 2nd row ad the 3rd row.

Thank you for these attachments in your post.

Thanks for the encouragement, Stephen.

My knowledge of theory isnt up to tackling modes yet, but I may add those later as I progress. I intentionally left the note letters out, to make the pattern transferable for all four root notes on each row. When I come to do the scale patterns, Ill certainly be adding in the root at both ends, so the approach is visible from either direction.


maugein96 pid=69558 dateline=1579810793 said:
AW,

Those felt pads are normally quite a distance up from the keyboard, and as such should have no effect on the button travel. If you check the height of the treble buttons from the keyboard the bass buttons should be a similar height up. If the felt pads are so close to the keyboard that theyre causing the buttons to stick then something is wrong. It sounds as though the whole bass mechanism may have dropped slightly, but I dont know enough about the inner workings to guess the cause, if indeed that is what has happened. 

Sore fingers are unfortunately a side effect of such adventures as you have undertaken, but Im sure youll get it all worked out in the end.

I think originally, there was something caught between the button stems and the holes they pass through, as some buttons were sticking/rubbing throughout their full travel range. This seems to have cleared now, and the buttons only stick when fully depressed.

The felts are nipped between the cap and stem, and the bass buttons do travel all the way down, which is why the felt is there in the first place - to stop the underside of the plastic cap clattering against the plastic casing. However, with use, that usage has caused the felts to compress and spread out past the diameter of the screw on cap. As the section beneath the keys is stepped, the squidged out felts are now rubbing against, and jamming against, the risers between the steps. Therefore, I am hoping that just reducing the diameter of the felts to be at or slightly less than the diameter of the cap, will give enough clearance to stop this happening. If thats not the case, then the felt must be catching on the aperture itself somehow. None of the pads are tacky, so they arent sticking to the plastic casing.

Ill trim down the problematic felts slightly, as I replace and test each cap, and hopefully this will cure it.
 
D

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I think your pdf 1 page chord shapes attachment can indeed help B-system learners a lot. 

Ideal to integrate these shapes and patterns visualisations in methods and tutorials online or in print. 
Great job! 
Thanks again.
 
M

maugein96

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AimlessWanderer pid=69559 dateline=1579813060 said:
Stephen pid=69557 dateline=1579805860 said:
I also used a similar chord shapes sheet (mine was for C-system CBA) like yours for B-system.
And I found this to be very useful in my CBA study.
I like the way you mark the tonic with a different colour (in red) from the other notes of the chord shape (in blue). I find this to be a good way to visualise inversed chords (first inversion, second inversion ...).

In the first two lines (the major and minor chord shapes), I also added the tonic of the next octave (but, in your case, with a blue color), so I made 4 notes chord shapes for my major and minor chords (with the basic tonic pitch + the tonic pitched an octave higher).

You can also use your shapes to visualise scales in different modes.

What I like is that you dont fill in the names of the notes in every circle, you only indicate the root note. This has also for me been the simplest and easiest way to learn about interval shapes on the CBA.

You can also add sheets to visualise all sorts of intervals between just two notes: the root + a major second , the root + a fourth, .... , and this from the 1st row of buttons, the 2nd row ad the 3rd row.

Thank you for these attachments in your post.

Thanks for the encouragement, Stephen.

My knowledge of theory isnt up to tackling modes yet, but I may add those later as I progress. I intentionally left the note letters out, to make the pattern transferable for all four root notes on each row. When I come to do the scale patterns, Ill certainly be adding in the root at both ends, so the approach is visible from either direction.


maugein96 pid=69558 dateline=1579810793 said:
AW,

Those felt pads are normally quite a distance up from the keyboard, and as such should have no effect on the button travel. If you check the height of the treble buttons from the keyboard the bass buttons should be a similar height up. If the felt pads are so close to the keyboard that theyre causing the buttons to stick then something is wrong. It sounds as though the whole bass mechanism may have dropped slightly, but I dont know enough about the inner workings to guess the cause, if indeed that is what has happened. 

Sore fingers are unfortunately a side effect of such adventures as you have undertaken, but Im sure youll get it all worked out in the end.

I think originally, there was something caught between the button stems and the holes they pass through, as some buttons were sticking/rubbing throughout their full travel range. This seems to have cleared now, and the buttons only stick when fully depressed.

The felts are nipped between the cap and stem, and the bass buttons do travel all the way down, which is why the felt is there in the first place - to stop the underside of the plastic cap clattering against the plastic casing. However, with use, that usage has caused the felts to compress and spread out past the diameter of the screw on cap. As the section beneath the keys is stepped, the squidged out felts are now rubbing against, and jamming against, the risers between the steps. Therefore, I am hoping that just reducing the diameter of the felts to be at or slightly less than the diameter of the cap, will give enough clearance to stop this happening. If thats not the case, then the felt must be catching on the aperture itself somehow. None of the pads are tacky, so they arent sticking to the plastic casing.

Ill trim down the problematic felts slightly, as I replace and test each cap, and hopefully this will cure it.



I think I get the picture, although the felts must have spread by an inordinate amount to be catching on the steps between the rows. 

Perhaps a previous owner has replaced the originals with material that wasnt designed for the job, and the felt has begun to deteriorate to the point where it is falling apart. 

As I said previously it is possible to buy purpose made felts, although getting them in small quantities can be an issue. I can guarantee that even with brand new felts those buttons will still clack on the keyboard, and that is one of the reasons why some (most?) players dont like mushroom buttons on stepped keyboards.


The normal type of peg buttons on a flat keyboard are simpler in operation (and use). If you havent played an accordion with standard bass buttons youll never know the difference. All CBAs have a tendency for the treble buttons to rattle with age, which is a downside compared to most PAs, where the piano type treble keys are usually quieter, and as a bonus if the bass side on your CBA has mushroom buttons you get that rattle in stereo!


Sounds like you have the determination to succeed, regardless.


AimlessWanderer pid=69559 dateline=1579813060 said:
Stephen pid=69557 dateline=1579805860 said:
I also used a similar chord shapes sheet (mine was for C-system CBA) like yours for B-system.
And I found this to be very useful in my CBA study.
I like the way you mark the tonic with a different colour (in red) from the other notes of the chord shape (in blue). I find this to be a good way to visualise inversed chords (first inversion, second inversion ...).

In the first two lines (the major and minor chord shapes), I also added the tonic of the next octave (but, in your case, with a blue color), so I made 4 notes chord shapes for my major and minor chords (with the basic tonic pitch + the tonic pitched an octave higher).

You can also use your shapes to visualise scales in different modes.

What I like is that you dont fill in the names of the notes in every circle, you only indicate the root note. This has also for me been the simplest and easiest way to learn about interval shapes on the CBA.

You can also add sheets to visualise all sorts of intervals between just two notes: the root + a major second , the root + a fourth, .... , and this from the 1st row of buttons, the 2nd row ad the 3rd row.

Thank you for these attachments in your post.

Thanks for the encouragement, Stephen.

My knowledge of theory isnt up to tackling modes yet, but I may add those later as I progress. I intentionally left the note letters out, to make the pattern transferable for all four root notes on each row. When I come to do the scale patterns, Ill certainly be adding in the root at both ends, so the approach is visible from either direction.


maugein96 pid=69558 dateline=1579810793 said:
AW,

Those felt pads are normally quite a distance up from the keyboard, and as such should have no effect on the button travel. If you check the height of the treble buttons from the keyboard the bass buttons should be a similar height up. If the felt pads are so close to the keyboard that theyre causing the buttons to stick then something is wrong. It sounds as though the whole bass mechanism may have dropped slightly, but I dont know enough about the inner workings to guess the cause, if indeed that is what has happened. 

Sore fingers are unfortunately a side effect of such adventures as you have undertaken, but Im sure youll get it all worked out in the end.

I think originally, there was something caught between the button stems and the holes they pass through, as some buttons were sticking/rubbing throughout their full travel range. This seems to have cleared now, and the buttons only stick when fully depressed.

The felts are nipped between the cap and stem, and the bass buttons do travel all the way down, which is why the felt is there in the first place - to stop the underside of the plastic cap clattering against the plastic casing. However, with use, that usage has caused the felts to compress and spread out past the diameter of the screw on cap. As the section beneath the keys is stepped, the squidged out felts are now rubbing against, and jamming against, the risers between the steps. Therefore, I am hoping that just reducing the diameter of the felts to be at or slightly less than the diameter of the cap, will give enough clearance to stop this happening. If thats not the case, then the felt must be catching on the aperture itself somehow. None of the pads are tacky, so they arent sticking to the plastic casing.

Ill trim down the problematic felts slightly, as I replace and test each cap, and hopefully this will cure it.



I think I get the picture, although the felts must have spread by an inordinate amount to be catching on the steps between the rows. 

Perhaps a previous owner has replaced the originals with material that wasnt designed for the job, and the felt has begun to deteriorate to the point where it is falling apart. 

As I said previously it is possible to buy purpose made felts, although getting them in small quantities can be an issue. I can guarantee that even with brand new felts those buttons will still clack on the keyboard, and that is one of the reasons why some (most?) players dont like mushroom buttons on stepped keyboards.


The normal type of peg buttons on a flat keyboard are simpler in operation (and use). If you havent played an accordion with standard bass buttons youll never know the difference. All CBAs have a tendency for the treble buttons to rattle with age, which is a downside compared to most PAs, where the piano type treble keys are usually quieter, and as a bonus if the bass side on your CBA has mushroom buttons you get that rattle in stereo!


Sounds like you have the determination to succeed, regardless.
 
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Stephen said:
I think your pdf 1 page chord shapes attachment can indeed help B-system learners a lot. 

Ideal to integrate these shapes and patterns visualisations in methods and tutorials online or in print. 
Great job! 
Thanks again.

Thanks Stephen ::)

Bass side reassembled, all buttons moving freely.. cover plate put back on, and wrist strap re-attached. Buttons aren't entirely level, bot part of that is caps not necessarily going back on the right stems. I can swap some thick for thin later to even it up a bit. They're close enough for now.

Hooray! Finally able to pump some air, press some buttons, and listen for obvious problems.

Bass side could do with a little tuning, but treble side needs the most attention. Raspy rattles at the lower end, sounds like the reed valves are crunchy. That repair doesn't scare me. Three reeds not sounding at all. Might be muck, but could easily be in need of a few replacements if maugein96's estimate of 70 years old is correct. 

Considering this was bought purely from pics, it could have been A LOT worse.

I managed to sort the base side out, without completely dismantling it, so I'll go in via the treble side this time. Less buttons to unscrew for a start.

I'm enjoying this... so far :p
 

Glug

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A real plus to doing this kind of work is that the things being fixed mostly stay fixed.

It's years of no maintenenace that caused the problems, once the issues are fixed it will probably work better than when it was new,
and it will stay like that for several years.
 
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Glug said:
A real plus to doing this kind of work is that the things being fixed mostly stay fixed.

It's years of no maintenenace that caused the problems, once the issues are fixed it will probably work better than when it was new,
and it will stay like that for several years.

Music to my ears! The woodwork all looked good in the bass side. No signs of decay. Very little in the way of metal corrosion/patina too, and considering there's dissimilar metals in contact, it's pretty clean for 70 years old.

Depending how much work is needed on the reed blocks, I might get a quote for someone qualified to get those sorted. Saves sending the whole machine out, and paying them to do the muppet work of dismantling and reassembling. I'm certain I can fit the reeds as required, but what I can't do is tune them to match the offset of the others, or indeed check the rest of the reeds and correct as required. I might as well let someone who has a test rig, accurate tuner, and experienced hand do that part.
 

Glug

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You can measure the tuning quite easily and that might give an idea if tuning is required (or just a nice idea).

What I do is put masking tape under all except one reed block and then measure the pitch (in and out) using Bill Farmers android tuner:
https://archive.org/details/org.billthefarmer.tuner_132

I put the results in a spreadsheet and have it flag any notes more than 3 cents off pitch,
you can also calculate the tremolo offset etc:


I decided my Hohner Lucia was in tune enough for my bad playing.
 

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Sadly, my phone is a Blackberry, and my laptop is on Linux. I'm almost app proof! It would also be a major pain in the padded area, to keep dismantling it to tune, and rebuilding it to test. I do have a handheld tuner, but don't know how good that would be. It certainly doesn't show cents accurately.
 

Glug

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I'm not suggesting tuning it yourself :)

I haven't tried tuning yet, and I wouldn't want to learn on something I want to play regularly, at the moment I'd definitely have retuning done by the professionals.  I just measured the current tuning to see if anything was wildly out.

Apparently Android emulators for linux are a thing: Anbox for example.
 
M

maugein96

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AimlessWanderer pid=69566 dateline=1579874266 said:
Glug pid=69565 dateline=1579870989 said:
A real plus to doing this kind of work is that the things being fixed mostly stay fixed.

Its years of no maintenenace that caused the problems, once the issues are fixed it will probably work better than when it was new,
and it will stay like that for several years.

Music to my ears! The woodwork all looked good in the bass side. No signs of decay. Very little in the way of metal corrosion/patina too, and considering theres dissimilar metals in contact, its pretty clean for 70 years old.

Depending how much work is needed on the reed blocks, I might get a quote for someone qualified to get those sorted. Saves sending the whole machine out, and paying them to do the muppet work of dismantling and reassembling. Im certain I can fit the reeds as required, but what I cant do is tune them to match the offset of the others, or indeed check the rest of the reeds and correct as required. I might as well let someone who has a test rig, accurate tuner, and experienced hand do that part.

Glad its all falling into place as it were. Im sure I read somewhere that it is possible to tune the reed blocks without the instrument being present, but they often require tweaking after they are put back inside the instrument. 

Dont know how accurate you need the tuning to be, and maybe somebody else has the scientific answer to the situation, i.e. it may be necessary to take or send the entire instrument away for a retune, and not just the reed blocks on their own. 

The reeds that dont sound may be stuck or broken. If they arent broken you can often free them by blowing hard through them like a mouth organ, until they free off. Dont tell anybody I suggested that as theyll tell you that you could damage the reeds by wetting them with saliva. I wouldnt do it on a brand new £30,000 apparatus with chin registers, free bass, tone chambers, alarm clock and a coffee machine built in, but you havent got a lot to lose on the box youre working on. If you do free them off chances are theyll have gone out of tune anyway, but you never know.  

I always keep a multi purpose specially built precision tool for all of my more fiddly jobs. 

Its called a 10lb hammer, and I learned how to use it to good effect on building sites in the 60s. It isnt infallible, and sometimes you need to use it twice in particularly delicate situations. Its great for resolving every type of fine engineering difficulty imaginable. Just thought Id mention it as an option. Ive a feeling Id have used it by now, but Im sure your patience and aptitude are far greater than mine.  

A year or two back a member bought a brand new expensive top of the range accordion that was vibrating on the bass side. She steadfastly refused to identify the maker or the model but asked several pertinent questions that had a good few of us racking our brains and searching the internet on her behalf. Parts were shipped back and forth across the Atlantic, but alas the problem never went away. This went on for a good few weeks. Every time another question, and every time refusal to identify the make and model. I decided I had the answer, and I think you can guess what it was. 

I banned myself from the forum for a while before the mods got involved, and I dont know how it all turned out. 

I wasnt suggesting you did the same, but 10lb hammers are relatively cheap at the moment!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10Lb-4-5...-Handle-Demolition-Post-Driving/143230620806?
 

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