The shifted fourth chord row

[dak]

When there are just three chord button rows (because there are just 5 rows in all, or 6 rows of which 3 are basses), it's often the case that the last row is labeled as a seventh row but is rootless instead of fifthless (namely the button "C7" has notes E-G-B♭ and can also serve as Gdim).

Now there are instruments with 4 chord rows that are not like c-cm-c7-cdim but c-cm-c7-gdim. This is typical for Russian CBAs with 6 button rows on the left side (I think that most non-converters have just 5 rows here).

Are there other traditions?

The reason I am asking is that my own instrument has this layout and I'd like to know whether that served a single-person request or a larger trend.

Here is an excerpt from an article about that person:


The text is somewhat pompous but still makes comparatively clear that this instrument has the shifted diminished row that is used for creating a minor sixth chord (I don't get the text, really).

Is this just a personal quirk (like the 2 baritone bass rows next to the bellows that Morino first built in the 1910s or 1920s for Thöni) or were there more instruments in Switzerland or elsewhere (in particular C system ones and/or piano accordion)?

If this is just a personal quirk, it would imply that the instrument I am playing was intended for personal use of Thöni and not "just" an hommage. On the other hand, my instrument has a C system free bass, and I have no evidence that Thöni ever diverged from the 2-row baritone bass layout (low notes at the bottom like with a bayan) that he first got Morino to build in the 1910s or 1920s.

So I'd be quite interested in news about other occurences of that shifted diminished row. It would make for a more complete picture.

 

[losthobos]

Makes good sense to me to have the required dim chord available to your thumb if your index finger is above the 7th....
It's the thumb that separates us from the beasts ....

 

[dak]

Makes good sense to me to have the required dim chord available to your thumb if your index finger is above the 7th....
It's the thumb that separates us from the beasts ....

Well, according to that sentiment, there are quite a few CBA schools for beasts… Personally, I don't use the thumb on the left hand, and my hand does not really shape into a straight one-finger-per-button line.

Here is my "Oblivion" upload right before two diminished chords, and you see that I don't really have much of a problem catching them with the index finger in spite (or because?) of my shifted diminished chord row. The additional "tuck under" is not really an issue for the index finger. Though I have to admit that I have a violin player's wrist twist.

 

[debra]

The standard bass layout on accordions with 2+4 arrangement is purely a regional thing. Whether they play PA or CBA people from the former Soviet block are used to the Cmaj-Cmin-C7-Gdim layout and people from "the West" are used to Cmaj-Cmin-C7-Cdim.
You have to know about this when ordering an accordion from a different region.
I ordered my C-system bayan with the Western bass layout. A friend of mine ordered a Kravtsov bayan from Zonta in Belarus and "forgot" to mention he wanted Western bass layout ("forgot" because he actually didn't know there was a difference) and is now stuck with the Russian standard bass layout.
Besides these there is the 3+3 layout that is used a lot in France, and 3+4 layout used in Balkan countries.

 

[losthobos]

Horses for courses
I play a french 3x3 system and in the key of C may use the F7 (spelt A,C,Eb) for Cdim...
Or may use the thumb on D7 (spelt F#,A,C)
Options

 

[Pipemajor]

people from the former Soviet block are used to the Cmaj-Cmin-C7-Gdim layout and people from "the West" are used to Cmaj-Cmin-C7-Cdim.

Aren't these the same?

 

[dak]

Aren't these the same?

Gdim and Cdim are different chords.

 

[debra]

Aren't these the same?

The dim row is moved down by one position in the Soviet layout versus the Western layout. So no difference in the chords, only in where the buttons for these chords are.

 

[Pipemajor]

Gdim and Cdim are different chords.

My mistake. Must go to specsavers

 

[Pipemajor]

The dim row is moved down by one position in the Soviet layout versus the Western layout. So no difference in the chords, only in where the buttons for these chords are.

My aplogies Debra.
I had mis-read the reply, thinking you said Cm both times

 

[JKJ]

I had mis-read the reply, thinking you said Cm both times

I also saw it incorrectly on the first read, puzzled a moment, then went on.
Now I’m waiting to see if someone explains the reason for that configuration.

 

[dak]

I also saw it incorrectly on the first read, puzzled a moment, then went on.
Now I’m waiting to see if someone explains the reason for that configuration.

Oh, there's multiple good reasons once you don't factor in the cost of being different. When switching between instruments with 3 and 4 chord button rows, it's easier to retain the same voicing.

Voicing could have been the impetus for Maurice Thöni to have Venanzio Morino provide this variant even in Switzerland: I have treatises where he obsesses over voicing in connection with the movable chord octave Morino built for him. If you have, say, C as the lowest chord note, then a G7-C cadenza ends up F/G/B to C/E/G which is horrible voice leading with regard to G. The alternative G7 voicing (on button Ddim) gives you D/F/B to C/E/G which is somewhat less horrible.

You can tremolo between voicings. And if you want the full D/F/G/B four-note seventh chord, you can get it with a single finger covering both buttons. And it's not like it's hard getting used to a bit less slant for getting the dim chords when used in their dim function.

The main reason for my question is to get a sense for how much this assignment may have been out of time and place in Switzerland in connection with a C system instrument: was this just a one-person quirk, or was there at some point of time a trend?

 

[Ikesaccordions]

You could have 4 notes on the Diminished row, and you could have 140 bass with the outside row an Augmented 7th. or 160 bass with minor 3rd basses and augmented 7th chords.
Also of course the double-duty diminished chord in 2 different places.
Instead of the 4 note Dominant 7th nowadays they take out the 5th so as not to clash when playing the augmented chord, as though any listener except the player would likely notice.

 

[dak]

Oh, there's multiple good reasons once you don't factor in the cost of being different. When switching between instruments with 3 and 4 chord button rows, it's easier to retain the same voicing.

Here is another. I am currently gaming with "Entry of the Gladiators" by Julius Fučik. So there is this passage:
and you can see that the accompaniment switches from G major chords to G dim chords and back to G major chords. Now that would seem like the easiest change whatsoever, but on arranger or Roland FR-1b (instead of my accustomed instrument) I have really hard problems switching to what is functionally closer to C7 with a raised fundamental (E-G-B♭ with the C♯ just in the treble) and more so back again without changing the button column. Super annoying. For more acadamic uses of the diminished chords, I can readily adapt between instruments.

 

[Ikesaccordions]

You could have 4 notes on the Diminished row, and you could have 140 bass with the outside row an Augmented 7th. or 160 bass with minor 3rd basses and augmented 7th chords.
Also of course the double-duty diminished chord in 2 different places.
Instead of the 4 note Dominant 7th nowadays they take out the 5th so as not to clash when playing the augmented chord, as though any listener except the player would likely notice.

Actually on some 160 or 140 bass accordions what I should have said was Augmented 5th chords on the outer row

 

[brna]

When there are just three chord button rows (because there are just 5 rows in all, or 6 rows of which 3 are basses), it's often the case that the last row is labeled as a seventh row but is rootless instead of fifthless (namely the button "C7" has notes E-G-B♭ and can also serve as Gdim).

Now there are instruments with 4 chord rows that are not like c-cm-c7-cdim but c-cm-c7-gdim. This is typical for Russian CBAs with 6 button rows on the left side (I think that most non-converters have just 5 rows here).

Semenov in his book "Sovremennaya shkola igry na bayane" says the following:


Translation:

Typical design of Tula bayans and all foreign instruments have Cdim chord on C row: C-Cm-C7-Cdim.
On Moscow bayans Cdim chord is found one button lower, on F row: F-Fm-C7-Cdim.

From Moscow are Jupiter bayans.
I don't which layout have Akko bayans. I'd like to know.