Seeking used Elise (or other) Wicki Hayden concertina

[mandojoe]

Having recently requested Edward Jay to build me one of his bandotinas, I need to learn to play the Wicki Hayden system. There are online apps for this, but pressing fingers against glass ... just not the same. So I'm hunting for an inexpensive concertina that will keep me busy for a year while Mr. Jay make my instrument.

 

[JerryPH]

Not many of those people visit here... you may wish to check out www.concertina.net/forums .

 

[mandojoe]

Thanks, JerryPH. Right about concertina.net. I posted there a few days ago, but did not receive any offers. I may have to purchase a new one. Best, Joe.

 

[actiasluna]

Thanks, JerryPH. Right about concertina.net. I posted there a few days ago, but did not receive any offers. I may have to purchase a new one. Best, Joe.

Hey - did you find one? I actually have a less than 6 month old Elise Hayden Duet (if that's the same as you said) that I bought straight from Concertina Connection and am looking to rehome. Very lightly used as I've never got the hang of it.

 

[nou]

Having recently requested Edward Jay to build me one of his bandotinas, I need to learn to play the Wicki Hayden system. There are online apps for this, but pressing fingers against glass ... just not the same. So I'm hunting for an inexpensive concertina that will keep me busy for a year while Mr. Jay make my instrument.

You may set this app https://vmpk.sourceforge.io/ for Hayden. It will fit three octaves in sideways extended form (two octaves up/down the keyboard with two naturals columns side by side). Key spacing will be off, but if you stick small clothing buttons on top of normal keyboard keys, it will resemble the feel of the real thing a bit better. Polyphony is very limited however, but will do for learning the basics. This is the only realistically available option for MIDI Hayden currently.

 

[mandojoe]

Thanks, actiasluna. I found a couple used Elise Duets, but they were barely cheaper than new, so I ended up buying a new one. I'm very underwhelmed with it, but it will serve its learning purpose on my way to something more substantial.

nou, as for apps, there is an app for Hayden Duet for iphone or ipad. I actually tried setting up two ipads back to back so I'd have left and right hands in motion ... but without a bellows, well, just not really useful. But, thanks for the suggestion.

 

[actiasluna]

Ah. Thanks for the reply... and... Just because I am curious... what do you find lacking with it ? I found its bellows not very easy to play (but compared to nothing, until I got an accordion and the bellows moves quite easily). That all could be down to my inexperience (I know less than nothing about concertinas even having that one which I rarely take out to practice on, thus thinking of selling it on) and was making no progress when trying to learn on it mostly due to the struggle with the bellows making it hard to get a clean sound. Maybe it needs more breaking in?

 

[mandojoe]

I am coming from playing a vintage 67-button Wheatstone Mccann aeola. No bellows issues at all and no problems getting notes to sound. On the Elise, the bellows are stiff and I keep wondering how long it will be before they loosen up because my wrists are 72 years old. Also, I seem to run out of bellows before I want to move in the other direction (be it in or out). And the low notes seem to need an inordinate amount of air to sound which, of course, impacts what you do with the bellows as well. I've spoken to Concertina Connection whose mantra seems to be that you have to spend more time with it, break it in, etc. So, I am looking forward to the bandotina from Edward Jay ... I expect no similar problems. But this won't be ready until the end of the year (if I'm lucky).

 

[actiasluna]

I am coming from playing a vintage 67-button Wheatstone Mccann aeola. No bellows issues at all and no problems getting notes to sound. On the Elise, the bellows are stiff and I keep wondering how long it will be before they loosen up because my wrists are 72 years old. Also, I seem to run out of bellows before I want to move in the other direction (be it in or out). And the low notes seem to need an inordinate amount of air to sound which, of course, impacts what you do with the bellows as well. I've spoken to Concertina Connection whose mantra seems to be that you have to spend more time with it, break it in, etc. So, I am looking forward to the bandotina from Edward Jay ... I expect no similar problems. But this won't be ready until the end of the year (if I'm lucky).

This is exactly what I experience with this model. I think I will hold on to it and keep playing it a little daily as I have tried a few things and don't really want to give up on it just yet. Edit: I may be doing the bellows work completely wrong - the CC site shows using the front of the concertina as a hinge point for the bellows. I will try this. (although I have seen other instruction that contradicts that technique)...That said:

What I did thinking it might help was to give the bellows a workout of sorts by holding the bellows valve open and pulling and pushing to the extent I could to hopefully get them more mobile, which seems to work. Yesterday I picked it up again and as a beginner I still had to break bellows work down to half a measure in and half a measure out, and that was iffy. It seems the bellows is probably folded card? ...the bellows is a little easier to work from the exercise I gave them... and I did notice that the bass reeds settled down a little and are not overpowering the treble now... but the higher reeds on both hands don't play consistently (way too much lag or not at all) ... I don't know what CC's makers did to this instrument but sold as a beginner's concertina the difficulty in working it in the first place is off-putting.

If I can't get the reeds sounding I am thinking about opening it up and seeing what's going on. But not before I give all the buttons a good workout, which won't happen unless I can get used to it which hasn't happened yet! I was really disappointed that the maker wouldn't take it back either but I did leave it til after their return window closed so that's on me. I guess one solution would to be to take it apart and replace the bellows altogether with a longer set of easier to work bellows, adding at least one? I think I might take this topic over to concertina.net and see what the veteran concertina folks recommend.

 

[mandojoe]

You said: "I don't know what CC's makers did to this instrument but sold as a beginner's concertina the difficulty in working it in the first place is off-putting."

This accounts for the oft repeated suggestion that beginners of any instrument buy the best they can afford because, goes the reasoning, the higher grade the instrument, the more adequately it provides a a good experience in both playability and tone for the newbie. This is especially true, I think, if you do not happen to have an experienced player advising you at the start.

By all means take the issue to concertina.net! They are a friendly group.

 

[nou]

Thanks, actiasluna. I found a couple used Elise Duets, but they were barely cheaper than new, so I ended up buying a new one. I'm very underwhelmed with it, but it will serve its learning purpose on my way to something more substantial.

nou, as for apps, there is an app for Hayden Duet for iphone or ipad. I actually tried setting up two ipads back to back so I'd have left and right hands in motion ... but without a bellows, well, just not really useful. But, thanks for the suggestion.

The vmpk has the advantage of physical buttons, which in my experience make huge difference when learning any layout. But you are right of course, that the lack of bellows (or any expression control) limit what you can learn with it.

As to Elise. I’ve been stuck with it for a decade or so. It is very frustrating instrument. My required making custom buttons out from the gate, because original ones were buzzing (buttons themselves, not reeds). Ergonomics is bad, response is merely acceptable, bellows need a lot of work and original springs are set for way too much force. It’s only merit is no existing alternative…

 

[kimric]

The Elise is way better than anything else like it at that price point, but it is a beginner instrument.
I have hotrodded these by replacing the lowest 3-4 notes on each side with vintage hand finished or hand made reeds from my back stock, this makes a big difference.

 

[nou]

The Elise is way better than anything else like it at that price point, but it is a beginner instrument.
I have hotrodded these by replacing the lowest 3-4 notes on each side with vintage hand finished or hand made reeds from my back stock, this makes a big difference.

Given that there is exactly zero other instruments like it at this price point you are most certainly right

IIRC Concertina Connection offered an upgrade to TAM reeds (to mount yourself) for some time.

My opinion in it would be a bit better, if it had the same byild quality, but the Troubadour note range (or better yet, Troubadour’s RH mirrored on both sides), as this is IMHO the bare minimum for Hayden.