Liberty bellows prices, honest? Fair?

[Jaime_Dergut]

Hello everybody,

today I wanted to discuss your experiences with Liberty Bellows store as a costumer.

Do you feel their prices on their accordions for sale are reasonable?

Recently, I was following this accordion.

6243 - Red Victoria Paganini Free Bass Piano Accordion LMH 37 39

Type: Piano Accordion Reeds: 3/2 LMH A441Hz Treble: 37 Keys, 17(43cm) Key to Key, 7 Registers Bass: 39 Bass Buttons ( 37 Tones - C-C ), 3 Registers Weight: 18.8lbs / 8.5kg Features: Lightweight C system free bass accordion with double octave tuning

www.libertybellows.com

It seems like a nice accordion to learn free bass and for a student of classical music.

However, what I noticed is that the old price was 2 500$, it was reduced to 1800$, and now to 1500$.


A similar case happened with this accordion:

6667 - Black Titano Palmer Converter Virtuoso Piano Accordion LMMH 41 120

Type: Piano Accordion Converter Reeds: 4/5 LMMH (A443Hz +4 cents) Treble: 41 Keys, 19.25(49cm) Key to Key, 11+M Registers Bass: 120 Bass Buttons, 7 Registers Weight: 27lbs / 12kg Features: Full size professional accordion with quint free bass converter

www.libertybellows.com

He was selling it for 2500$ the day he posted it, but next day (curiously, after I posted a thread about it in this forum. Do they keep track on what's going here?) he raised the price up to 4 000$.

The owner Mike keeps changing prices on his accordions, and it seems he does that depending on how much he thinks he can get away with it.

I get it, he has a business and is trying to make money, but I don't feel is alright to try to take advantage of the customers like this.

What might be your opinions about this?

Regarding that Paganini, I feel tempted to buy if I want to really learn a free bass accordion in the future, and that price seems to be the lowest I could get for such accordion.

Thanks for your attention.

 

[Ventura]

at one time, ages past, lost to the mists of time, companies valued
their products based on legitimate and quantifiable points, and
products were priced accordingly, so there was usually, in those
golden days, some honest relationship between cost of manufacture/
acquisition/value-added and actual selling price

then too, for Musical instruments, the manufacturer woud set and publish
suggested retail prices for their full line, and retail marketers were discounted
from that (typically 40% on reasonable sized orders, with extra margin's
added from say, yearly volume, and applied to next years orders)

but today the internet, the teaching, everything is based on
percieved value
which is mostly based on some bullshit made up marketing story
or false internet search data to get you to see their webpage and
pop up some immediate discount or other buy it now trick..

see, most of you kids have absolutely no clue what it actually costs to
make a product or bring it to market.. so you can be tricked by modern
"get as much money for everything as you can from the top 10% of
gullible people then discount it to hell to get rid of the rest of this junk" methodology

then go get some more stuff to sell with some new bullshit story because
todays buyers never learn

hell, they can sell them INSURANCE for damn near everything they buy..

i personally do not trust anyone that plays games with prices,
or who has to make up incredible product stories, or tell obviously
tall tales, or find a million ways to name drop value brand references
onto their piece of junk no-name clunker..

but i can afford to be this way

God help the Young'uns today

 

[Thomas N]

I enjoy every post you make, Ventura. EVERY post.

 

[John M]

I have had very good experience with Mike at Liberty Bellows. I have purchase 3 accordions from him -- 2 Roland Fr-8X's and an ACE. They were all exactly as described and packed very well for shipment. In general, you can buy the same model for a lower price. But, for the service he provides, after the sale is worth it. Look at his website with demos of the accordion he is selling, he also repairs the accordions he sells and gives a 6 month warranty. I believe you can purchase an accordion and if you are not satisfied, you can return for a full refund, within a certain time limit. All this "overhead" costs him $$$.
I have spoken to him and what he tells you, he stands behind -- he is not "blowing smoke".

 

[isorry123]

Accordions are a pretty illiquid market. It’s not like trading pork futures or stocks. Not surprised the price fluctuates - and I’m sure they do monitor this forum. It’d be foolish not to raise the price if someone was like “hey this is a good deal”.

I would just stay away from the new Chinese hohners. Their warranty is good and I like the videos they include with each machine

On the topic of free bass: why? lol stradella system is hard enough

 

[debra]

Selling and buying accordions does not happen in a highly competitive market. It is mostly a matter of supply and demand. The seller wishes to sell accordions for as much as buyers are willing to pay and buyers try to get the instruments for as little as a vendor will let the instrument go for. This happens much more with used accordions than with new ones, but even with new accordions, when there are multiple dealers for the same item each dealer tries to maximize profit, considering when the instrument is overpriced it will not sell, and when it is sold at a large discount the effort in obtaining the accordion doesn't pay off much...
For buyers especially of used accordions it is difficult to find a trustworthy seller that will only sell accordions that have been revised, repaired where needed and tuned to perfection... The buyer essentially wants an accordion that is as good as new, but many sellers do not wish to invest the time and effort in bringing the accordion up to that standard...
In short... it's a minefield!

 

[kimric]

Since i actually run a shop i can weigh in here.
Sometimes you list something for what the factory reccomends, and then find it listed in some shop in another country (never mind shipping) for a lot less. This means you may have to compete with a shop in a area that has a way lower cost of living and the the only way you will sell it is to sell it for a similar price, even if you are hardly covering shipping, customs fees, handling warranty ,long term service ect the ability to trade in ect. This will also mean that you may not bother to carry this line any more.
A actual example I ran into was Victoria contacted me since they were direct selling a $13,000 instrument to someone in my area and they wanted me to carry the warranty, they offered me $500. This would not cover even light shipping damage, much less 2 years of adjustments and service.
I said i would do it for a bit more , and I would order several instruments and stock them if they would give me a territory for the area (150 mile circle) the next shop would still be hundreds of miles beyond that.
The just sort of ignored that part and asked what i wanted to order, I asked again and got no response.

This is why you don't have a lot of music stores , or places that can service instruments.
I can spend 2 hrs with a customer who tries out stuff and i will explain the differences,quality ,sound, hook them up with teachers, find the right music books etc, this can take about $200 of time I could be dealing with repairs. And then they buy it on line.
This makes no sense as a business.

I do have issues with a lot of the used instruments that people have brought in from LB. Most are no different than the random old stuff people bring in, but just more expensive. Most need rewaxing ,valves etc.

 

[John Doe]

Have purchased several accordions from LB and they were, when represented to be so, in good repair; valves and wax. Mik was forthright whan asked about condition prior to purchase.

The value of any item for sale is what someone will pay for it. LB is a business; they price accordingly.

That Titano convertor? Might be worth a great deal to someone who wants one. Might have a bass end that is pretty mediocre for someone who just uses it as a stradella. Having bought it and brought it up to snuff LB is going to balance what it might bring against having it camp on the shlf for months. The money invested/tied up in acquiring it represents other goods LB can't stock until it moves.

 

[John Doe]

I do have issues with a lot of the used instruments that people have brought in from LB. Most are no different than the random old stuff people bring in, but just more expensive. Most need rewaxing ,valves etc.

Not my experience but yours is surely valid as well.

 

[ColoRodney]

For used accordions, prices are quite dependent on whether you can find the right buyer, as I'm sure most of us know. I have a highly decorated Polka King with hand-made reeds--my tech says it should be worth several thousand to the right buyer--but I know it may not be possible to find anyone who wants it in Colorado. Reducing the price until it sells can be the only way to move the instrument, so I can hardly fault Liberty Bellows for doing that with the Victoria LMH. That's as much a niche item as my Polka King.

I'm planning to visit Liberty Bellows soon to try out a new instrument. Mike has been helpful about answering questions via email. For the instrument I'm interested in, they're the only seller in the country; so my options are to buy it at the price asked, or not buy it at all.

Since I want installed microphones, the option of testing at home for just the cost of shipping didn't make as much sense; since then I can't have them install the mics. I'm taking advantage of some built-up airline miles to be able to try the likely accordions in person, just in case I find I like a different model better.

 

[xocd]

The owner Mike keeps changing prices on his accordions, and it seems he does that depending on how much he thinks he can get away with it.

I get it, he has a business and is trying to make money, but I don't feel is alright to try to take advantage of the customers like this.

Oh, you sweet summer child! Unless I had a previous relationship with the seller, and he had mentioned a price to me, this is what I would expect.

 

[PhiliGol]

I’ve bought one of my instruments from Mike and didn’t regret it any second. Mike took a whole lot of time, let me extensively test the piece of desire, opened it to inspect reeds, valves and wax. We even did a few pieces together, finally we made the deal and I took her home (to Germany).
If you‘re able to do it the same way (I can only agree with Ventura) and you come to the conclusion „this is it“ (listen YOUR ears and YOUR guts) then it’s alright. I can only recommend: don’t make your decision based on 3rd party appraisal - don’t put too much into nice (video) demos. Spend a date and get engaged (or not).
$$$ ?
If she’s worth it you won’t try to make a bargain

 

[Waldo]

I have purchased 2 instruments from LB without issue. My first box I jumped on because it was $500.00 cheaper than any others I could find;. As it turns out, the price on the website was an error. He was discounting, by $500.00, an identical model that was a PA (and $500 cheaper than the CBA) and the discounted price somehow ended up on the CBA listing. The CBA should have been $500.00 more than the listing, after it was discounted. Mike was unaware of the mistake until I came along and bought it. He could have refused the sale and blamed "computer error", but he didn't. He honored the listing price and probably didn't make anything on the sale. Mistakes happen. The price increase mentioned by the PO may have been a detected mistake, corrected.
Never forget, buying any used accordion is a crap-shoot at best. After buying half-a-dozen used boxes, and being disappointed with all of them for one reason or another, I finally popped for new. Were they perfect because they were new? Absolutely not (See "Killer Accordion" post). They did come with a return option and defect correction if necessary We should all be happy that there are individuals out there that are willing to open an accordion shop in the first place. Without whom, we would all be dealing with the confusion of foreign languages, duty fees, a major return hassle & cost and no informational resource.
Sometimes it's best to jump on what you perceive to be a good deal before someone else does. If you make a mistake, there is always Ebay...
Press on,
Waldo

 

[dak]

The owner Mike keeps changing prices on his accordions, and it seems he does that depending on how much he thinks he can get away with it.

I get it, he has a business and is trying to make money, but I don't feel is alright to try to take advantage of the customers like this.

He is dealing with used instruments and making a living from having paid less for them than he is asking for them, even when offering warranties or returns. That means he will live from the difference in how desirable an instrument is to the seller to how desirable it is to the buyer.

It is not clear to me where your bar for being "honest" or "fair" is crossed in how much of a difference there will be between buying and selling prices, and whether you care only about "honesty and fairness" towards buyers or also towards sellers.

 

[OuijaBoard]

I have purchased two accordions from LB, both of them new Italian 26/60s. An MM and an LMM. I do think they charge a premium . . "Because They Can." They have you over a barrel due to the scarcity of available new accordions in the U.S. The LMM was a new Ottavianelli. Ottavianelli calls that 26/60 size and their 30/72 size the "Cub," and they are delightful little guys for folk music. Anyhow. LB gets them in batches every couple of years, or used to. So, they had a batch of these little 26/60 LMM "Cubs. " Well, I can't recall if LB shipped it in a gig bag or one of those el-cheapo Chinese cases with the aluminum frames. But not long thereafter I saw Ottavianelli cases in that 26/60 size for sale on their site for something like $300. The inference was inescapable that those cases came with the "Cub" accordions from Italy, and LB subbed in something cheap to ship it to me and then sold the case independently. That was not a nice feeling at all. They have never thanked me nicely for my business or been genial or eager to be of service, at all, about purchases of thousands of dollars.

One thing you can say about Petosa--They will appreciatively thank you for your business and exude some eager-to-be-of-service geniality. It's intangible, but it matters.

One of the things that bugs me about LB is they often post Used instruments without a clear designation they are used. You have to look down in the description where they list the accessories, and it'll say "Used straps." That will be the tip-off that it's a used accordion. There are times they do mark the listing "Certified Used." But often it's hidden or buried, and you have look really hard. And they almost never post a written condition ranking and description with Used instruments. I won't consider them for used items due to that.

 

[OuijaBoard]

FYI to the OP, Petosa has one of those red Victoria Paganinis listed on their Used pages at the moment. A 2-voice MH. For $1695.

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

I don't see how changing a price is "taking advantage of customers". You are free to decide if the accordion is worth the price they are asking. Both of these prices seem reasonable for what they are selling, with the peace of mind that comes with buying from an actual shop with a warranty, and the Victoria seems like an excellent deal. There is no blue book for accordions, and the value of a used instrument is determined by demand. For example, almost everyone nowadays (in the US, at least, perhaps Europe is different) wants the smallest, lightest, wet tuned accordion possible. Giant 4 or 5 reed 120 bass "professional" accordions are very hard to sell for anything close to what they were once worth, but people will pay thousands for a Chinese Hohner Bravo or, more justifiably, a refurbished Concerto III. Perhaps someday large and/or LMH accordions will be back in fashion. The point is that it's consumer demand that determines value. If LB cannot sell a Titano converter for $4000, they will eventually reduce the price. I'm pretty sure Mike's not changing his prices based on your posts to this forum.

 

[OuijaBoard]

I also have repeatedly seen them lower prices on brand-new instruments. Twice, with very expensive Scandalli Bandoneons. And the prices were lowered within not at all a long interval after the thing first came into stock. So if you bought one right away, you were the chump. That does not make a good impression. I think I've seen it a couple times with very expensive Saltarelle new CBAs, too, though the Saltarelles had sat there longer. But it just doesn't send a nice message. The items I have purchased have been smaller new Italian accordions in the Super-Durall reed class for world folk genres, and the prices were the prices, they didn't change. I'd probably buy something of that level from them again, too, TBH.

 

[LibraryJoe]

I've bought instruments from both Petosa and Liberty Bellows and haven't had any problems either in-person from LB and cross-country from Petosa. It appears that LB has much more used stock; I'm guessing a lot of Petosa's used instruments are based on trade-ins.
Both stores package and ship their accordions extremely well, though I've heard of disasters. Mike suggests if I can, to visit the shop to try instruments rather than order online. My trip to the Pacific Northwest included visiting Petosa as a highlight, and I was greeted and treated very well. (My purchases were online after my single visit).
It's also likely that LB and Petosa do just what we do, and compare prices online. When visiting LB, Mike was telling me about his family trip that was to include a visit to Petosa.
I'd trust both shops for purchases. Their guarantees, their try-at home periods are realistic. One pays a premium at both shops, but online purchasing of accordions is always a coin toss.

 

[cestjeffici]

I bought a Scandalli Air III c-griif button accordion from Liberty Bellows. I may have been able to find a lower price but it would have taken time and energy. I also value their good reputation and I got really good treatment when I picked up the instrument. The feeling of security and the convenience were worth more to me than a lower price.