Liberty bellows prices, honest? Fair?

[Dingo40]

When paying for or an item or a service, I always think how lucky we are to have someone willing to provide it for us and cater to our needs.
Pay up and shut up or do without.
Any kind of business whatever, in this day and age, virtually means taking your life in your hands.
Generally, we're not frequent customers and won't be making them rich, and they have to cover their down time and overheards as well.
It's not the public service where one still gets paid rain or shine!
Lucky to have them, I say!

 

[KLR]

I was just looking at that Victoria and Titano, then dropped by here, and they're being discussed, huh.

Dunno if I'll ever do business with LB - I have enough frickin' accordions - but I love the videos they make for everything. It's great to hear a superb player put a great box like a Hohner Morino X through its paces.

 

[cestjeffici]

When I picked up my Scandalli at LB I had never played a button accordion. Aside from thoroughly making sure sure every reed played before I left Elena Stenkina played a little concert for me on my new accordion so I could at least enjoy it a little. This is the kind of customer attention that will keep me coming back.

 

[ColoRodney]

Yes. The videos are a huge advantage to buying from a brick-and-mortar store that has actual accordionists working there. I've always been surprised how few people selling used accordions include a video (possibly because for many accordions it wouldn't help the sale). And Liberty Bellows' video on degrees of dry to wet musette tuning is a true public service. I couldn't have made that video myself--who but a store would have that many instruments to demonstrate?

 

[Alans]

I bought two from Liberty Bellows-one a free bass and another standard one. I had no problem with Mike nor the store. I’m not going to buy from them again as the rate of exchange is too high for me and I found a few reputable dealers near where I live. Mike is a business man who happens to love accordions., His store is in a trendy part of town . He’s not the Salvation Army. He will charge whatever he thinks he can get and he allows you to return the instrument if you’re not happy with it. No dealer is going to under cut what profit they can make from their sales. It’s called capitalism.

 

[Xiane]

Yes. The videos are a huge advantage to buying from a brick-and-mortar store that has actual accordionists working there. I've always been surprised how few people selling used accordions include a video (possibly because for many accordions it wouldn't help the sale). And Liberty Bellows' video on degrees of dry to wet musette tuning is a true public service. I couldn't have made that video myself--who but a store would have that many instruments to demonstrate?

My sense of most people selling used accordions is that they have no idea what they have, or what to do with it.

I've had a lot of conversations that go roughly like this "I'm interested in that diatonic accordion you're selling. Can you tell me what keys it's in?"

"Huh? Keys? It's an accordion."

 

[ColoRodney]

...But not long thereafter I saw Ottavianelli cases in that 26/60 size for sale on their site for something like $300. The inference was inescapable that those cases came with the "Cub" accordions from Italy, and LB subbed in something cheap to ship it to me and then sold the case independently. That was not a nice feeling at all.

I know that Liberty Bellows has a policy of including either a case or a gig bag in the price. I'm guessing a lot of people choose the gig bag, especially for a small box that fits on your back so easily compared to lugging a hard case. It would make sense that for every buyer who chooses a gig bag, they've got a leftover hard case to sell separately. I don't see anything nefarious. At the moment, the empty cases they show on their site range from $4.99 to $99, so they're not asking too much for them.

 

[breezybellows]

at one time, ages past, lost to the mists of time, companies valued
their products based on legitimate and quantifiable points, and
products were priced accordingly, so there was usually, in those
golden days, some honest relationship between cost of manufacture/
acquisition/value-added and actual selling price

then too, for Musical instruments, the manufacturer woud set and publish
suggested retail prices for their full line, and retail marketers were discounted
from that (typically 40% on reasonable sized orders, with extra margin's
added from say, yearly volume, and applied to next years orders)

but today the internet, the teaching, everything is based on
percieved value
which is mostly based on some bullshit made up marketing story
or false internet search data to get you to see their webpage and
pop up some immediate discount or other buy it now trick..

see, most of you kids have absolutely no clue what it actually costs to
make a product or bring it to market.. so you can be tricked by modern
"get as much money for everything as you can from the top 10% of
gullible people then discount it to hell to get rid of the rest of this junk" methodology

then go get some more stuff to sell with some new bullshit story because
todays buyers never learn

hell, they can sell them INSURANCE for damn near everything they buy..

i personally do not trust anyone that plays games with prices,
or who has to make up incredible product stories, or tell obviously
tall tales, or find a million ways to name drop value brand references
onto their piece of junk no-name clunker..

but i can afford to be this way

God help the Young'uns today

How does manufacturing cost play a role in the sale of a used accordion? Isn't the price of everything based on supply and demand?
Depreciation can be applied if a comparable new item is available on the market.

I saw a Giulietti Super V Bassetti in @kimric 's store a few years ago. It was priced at $1200. At that time I didn't have any plans to learn free bass. After a few days I thought that should give it a try. I call him and he says it's sold. I was looking for one like that for three years. I couldn't find one. When I found one, the seller asked for $8k. How do you appraise the value for a product that is extremely limited in supply and the potential buyers are also very low. There is no easy answer. But "cost of manufacturing" is not very relevant in a case like that.

 

[Vladimir M.]

Direct production/manufacturing costs have already been paid by the first buyer. The price of a new high-quality accordion can reach the price of a car. But unlike a car, the decline in price of an accordion over time is considerably less steep. No normal person buys a 30-year-old car for a third of its original price (adjusting for inflation). This is however common for high-quality and well-preserved accordions.

Sellers like Liberty Bellows always have to find the right compromise: Customer satisfaction (=sale of the instrument) with the lowest possible costs for the seller for repair of a particular accordion. If Liberty Bellows (or anyone here in Europe) would carry out a detailed overhaul of the instrument to its original technical condition, then the accordions would be unsaleable. The cost would be astronomical.

Or I'll ask another way: Are you buying regularly driven cars in the form of perfectly restored oldtimers for tens of thousands of dollars/euros? Probably not, right? To ride, to meet safety standards, but with expected wear and tear.

What do we expect from a used accordion? To be tuned, to have no rust on the reeds, to keep the wax from crumbling, and to keep the valves in good condition. We don't expect new sparkling clean reeds, we don't expect novelty and wood-scented reed-blocks, we don't expect new valves. We do not expect a scratch-free surface.

I agree that we can be happy to have such sellers. If we were only dependent on anonymous selling-platforms, it would be a much tougher jungle.

Best regards, Vladimir

 

[debra]

...
Sellers like Liberty Bellows always have to find the right compromise: Customer satisfaction (=sale of the instrument) with the lowest possible costs for the seller for repair of a particular accordion. If Liberty Bellows (or anyone here in Europe) would carry out a detailed overhaul of the instrument to its original technical condition, then the accordions would be unsaleable. The cost would be astronomical.
...

Best regards, Vladimir

You are very right. You also have to account for the age of the instrument. An accordion that's 10 to 20 years young and has not been involved in accidents should just require tuning and maybe a bit of cleaning (blowing out dust) and should be ready to go to the next customer. Some accordions require a bit more work because of sloppiness in manufacturing (like using leather valves with plastic boosters in places where the valves hang down during storage on the accordion's feet), but for the most part such accordions should be good as new.
When an accordion gets older, say 30 to 40 years it becomes a matter of considering cost versus price for repairs that are maybe not immediately necessary but almost certainly during the next 10 years of ownership. I'm thinking mostly of new wax, and while doing that also new valves. It ups the cost, not to astronomical level, but ensures more years of trouble-free use. Especially where distances are problematic (like in the US and Canada) it is highly advisable to spend the money rather than have an unhappy customer come back for repairs.
Cost only becomes "astronomical" for really old accordions of 50 years or more where essentially everything needs to be taken apart, reconditioned/cleaned or perhaps replaced... and no vendor will do that prior to having a sale guaranteed.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

This has been an very interesting conversation so far!

Yes, buying a used accordions is pretty much like buying a used car nowadays.

One has to play the same game and be smart/patience in order to get the best deal, including our dear Libertybellow store.

Interestingly, I do believe that Paganini is a nice deal for what it is. Relatively light weight and of good quality.

But I don't have enough motivation to buy it. If someone is interested to learn free bass, that might be a good choice.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

My sense of most people selling used accordions is that they have no idea what they have, or what to do with it.

I've had a lot of conversations that go roughly like this "I'm interested in that diatonic accordion you're selling. Can you tell me what keys it's in?"

"Huh? Keys? It's an accordion."

Absolutely. They think it is worth something just because it has a piano keyboard.

They usually saw them on state sales and think "Oh wow, I had no idea what it is but I bet I can get some money if I resell it!".

 

[xocd]

In the end, a thing is worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. Caveat emptor.

 

[Zevy]

This has been an very interesting conversation so far!

Yes, buying a used accordions is pretty much like buying a used car nowadays.

IMHO There is a big difference. A used car doesn’t get any better with time. You might do better with a used accordion in quality and in value.

 

[breezybellows]

IMHO There is a big difference. A used car doesn’t get any better with time. You might do better with a used accordion in quality and in value.

Also, there will be so many other exact matches for the same model in the used car market.

 

[Thomas N]

It's a hard game to be in. I'm glad Liberty Bellows exists. I really liked John Castiglione's website back in the day and he was instrumental in my Excelsior 960 purchase.

I don't play it much anymore with my 930 and FR-8X, and it's in mint condition. I've thought about selling it but just thinking about the ordeal of opening it up, taking 20 pictures of all the reedblocks and angles, putting up videos of playing each register, listing it, then having it professionally packaged for shipping and then getting pennies on the dollar for it stops me cold in my tracks. Better to have it and play it occasionally to keep it in good condition.

 

[Xiane]

It's a hard game to be in. I'm glad Liberty Bellows exists. I really liked John Castiglione's website back in the day and he was instrumental in my Excelsior 960 purchase.

I don't play it much anymore with my 930 and FR-8X, and it's in mint condition. I've thought about selling it but just thinking about the ordeal of opening it up, taking 20 pictures of all the reedblocks and angles, putting up videos of playing each register, listing it, then having it professionally packaged for shipping and then getting pennies on the dollar for it stops me cold in my tracks. Better to have it and play it occasionally to keep it in good condition.

This is my feeling about Liberty Bellows, Petosa, Smythe, etc. (And honestly there aren't tons more.) I'm just glad SOMEONE is doing it. I want to support them if I can, and support the people who restore accordions as well.

 

[Xiane]

Absolutely. They think it is worth something just because it has a piano keyboard.

They usually saw them on state sales and think "Oh wow, I had no idea what it is but I bet I can get some money if I resell it!".

People are surprised when I tell that that no, finding a 1953 Excelsior isn't like finding a mint 1953 Les Paul in granddads attic (Ka-ching!). That accordions degrade significantly over time in most cases.

 

[JKJ]

I have not yet bought an accordion from Liberty Bellows but I have bought other things. Each time I called they were patient and quite helpful. They are also respected by some people I trust which means a lot to me. The store is not an unreasonable drive for me so if seriously in the market for an instrument I would make an appointment and visit.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

To add to the history, I have had good experiences with Liberty bellows whenever I need supplies like back straps, books, etc.

I have never bought an accordion from them, however.

The only thing I can add is that, for what I heard from former employees, the owner Mike is the most benevolent man in the world, who always treats its employees as if they were part of the family, with utter kindness and compassion.