dot readers v by earists v by memory

[donn]

I've gone to the trouble to write a tune out, that I'm trying to learn - and then not really using the paper much or at all afterwards, as I don't really read music on the accordion! The exercise works because the process of working the tune out may be quite slow, and much more efficient to build up on paper. (And both the `paper' and the tune are likely in digital form on the same computer.)

Improvisation comes easy for me, but I could never explain how. The standard accordion seems like a rather ideal platform for it. If you play through some simple tune, and then give your right hand a rest and continue only with the left, you'll be playing a sort of "null tune", right? The chords, that is. Then hum a note or two that go with the chords, maybe just the chord notes up and down a few times, that counts as a tune. Play the notes you hummed, and you're improvising. I'd start with humming because it should be more immediately accessible from your right cerebral hemisphere, if you will, and less likely to precipitate a lot of analysis that will just get in the way. I feel strongly that you cannot hope to think your way through it and get satisfactory results (in the analytical sense of "think", of course your musical faculties are also a form of thought.) The thing with your musical faculties, though, is that they just take a lot of time and repetition.

 

[Soulsaver]

However, I feel that to play well/with feeling, one has to let go of the sheet music and play from memory.

I agree with this - I think of sheet music as a way to learn music, not to play it.

Yes .... and to remind you when youve forgotten it. And/or when you want to pass it on to someone else.

 

[Daveg4otu]

I agree with Donn about improvisation - I can do it but I can't tell you exactly how....it is just there hardwired in my brain. Most particularly with blues and almost any stuff where I can use the pentatonic scale.

My easiest way to learn a tune at the moment with the accordion is to find a tune I like on Youtube - let it play through a few times then play it , either in the same key - or if it's a key I don't like then switch it to C....as an example the cajun tune Diggy Liggy Lo - watch - listen - play, then improvise on the very basic chord sequence.

Most tunes can be played with about 5 or 6 basic chords(or less) if you're an ear player ( eg:1M IVM V7 VIm II7 IIIM these pretty much cover 90% of all "popular " tunes ever written).

With that in mind, as Donn said , the accordion is the ideal platform for it, particularly as transposing is so easy>

Nonetheless, I envy those who can sit down with a sheet of music they have never seen before and play it .

 

[Glenn]

I find there is a huge difference in improvising as part of a group and improvising solo. For me solo is really an art firm that is unique. It requires imagination and discipline. In a group setting you have a lot of leeway to make bum notes. Solo you're on display as if you are naked before the listener. Well that's how I feel.

 

[Ben_H]

I'm lucky enough to be able to do all three but I started paino lessons at 6 years old so I've had a lot of practice. I also never managed to get piano teachers to let me learn what I wanted to play so had to work it out for myself.

 

[Glenn]

I started piano at 10 heard old but improvisational was never a part of the lesson. I think it comes with trial and error and learning certain riffs and patterns over many years. It's not something you can do from first principles.

 

[jarvo]

Im lucky enough to be able to do all three but I started paino lessons at 6 years old so Ive had a lot of practice. I also never managed to get piano teachers to let me learn what I wanted to play so had to work it out for myself.

and thereby hangs a tale :evil:

 

[smdc66]

:twisted:

i keep wondering jarvo but what's in your avatar pic :?:

looks like a tv getting poor reception, being watched by a small person, maybe mr blobby jnr., leaning on a small guitar

maybe i need to go speccsavers :?

 

[jarvo]

Its my puss cat Biscuit, wailing on a fender strat.......into a fender blues junior amp.......she is too small for an accordion.........




aint "paint" wonderful software?...........I'll try and put a bigger version of it up......

 

[Johnny J]

This is an "old chestnut" of an argument which regularly gets thrashed out on many other music forums and, usually, we all agree to differ on what is the best approach. It also depends on why or where you are playing the music. If you are in an orchestra, it's good to have the sheet music but it's a real pain when you are "down in the pub".
Ideally, it's good to be able to do both.

I started as an ear player although I can now sight read fairly well having had to learn when playing in fiddle rallies etc. Unfortunately, I'm not so good with the bass line although I understand it. However, that's probably less of an issue with the accordion as it's usually fairly simple and you don't even really need it much of the time as long as you know the chords.

However, I do find that my ability to sight read well is instrument specific up to a point. So, I'll often find that I'll learn the tune on the fiddle or mandolin first and then play it from memory or by ear on the box. Mind you, I'm now much more familiar with where the notes are on the accordion than I used to be.

As for chords, I can usually work out most of the simple ones myself, ie. the three chord trick along with relative minors etc although for anything more elaborate I sometimes find that chords which suit the guitar don't necessarily transfer well to the accordion and vice versa. Some aren't possible either, of course.

Still, that's all part of the musical journey.

 

[Bill V]

I attended an accordion event some years ago a player came on and said I have a tune that Harry Hussey won't know,because he had composed it,this was its first outing.Later on the programme Harry came on and played it back to us spot on.That must be ear playing at its best.very impressive.

 

[george garside]

This is the first time I have looked at this interesting thread so for what its worth here are my personalviews on the by ear or from the dots way of playing. ( I play mostly by ear and am not a good dot reader buit I can read the dots for any tune I already know!)

The chap Bll v has just refered to is probably one of the relative few who have perfect pitch and can playh a tune spot on after hearing it once. This was also true of Jimmy Shand . who while being driven to the airport for a Canada and USA tour asked the driver ( a piper) to whistle 3 or 4 'new' pipe tunes which he did. Shand then played them on stage at top venues in canada and the states!

Now back to the main discussion . Reading the dots or learning tunes by ear are merely a way of getting the tune into the processor ( the brain). The brain of a 'dotist' processes the visual input and sends it down the arm so that it eventualy reaches the box and all being well the tune is played exactly as per the visual input i.e. the dots.
this may well be why many dotists have great difficulty in departing from the dots ( improvising , re arranging or whatever you want to call it)

The by earist has to first of all get a tune into the processor, usualy by aural input , perhaps assisted by some visual (dots) input and then store it in the memory bank. This part of the processs can for the majority of 'earists' take some time. From that stage the process is similer for both groups in that messages are sent down the arm etc. Perhaps because a tune has been in the processor for some time during which it may have been 're arranged' thro whistling and humming etc lt may have moved on in some ways from the original input aand is therefore likely to be played in a way that the player prefers.

or something like that!!!

Is one better or cleverer than the other -- definitely not -- both have their place in accordionland but tend to some degree to be genre orientated or specific. Traditional and folk players tend to have more 'earists' among them because that is the way a lot of trad music has been passed on over generations. It is also very useful in situations where you don't know what is going to be played and therefore are very unlikey to have the written music with you (eg in sessions). There is also the, in my opinion valid, argument that 'by earing' allows for greater sponteneity and adjustment of tunes to purpose on the hoof.

For orchestral work , big band work, the playing of classical 'pieces' as the composer intended then dot reading is for most absolutely essential. It also allows the instant or 'after a little practice' spot on playing of tunes that are new to the musician.


Over the years I have found that both earists and dotists are really quite jealous of each others skills and both groups are in admiration of the relative few players who can face either way with aplomb!



george

 

[nathen]

Those are great observations George, and I am sure will go a long way in helping to reconcile the two factions, if that's even possible.

I did make some comments on this in the 'Russian Romance' thread. I got turned off of dot reading at the age of eight when I took violin lessons at school. Unfortunately, I joined well into the term, got absolutely no instruction, and was held up to ridicule and constantly humiliated. It took until my late twenties before I resumed looking at the dots again in university.

Fortunately, all was not lost, I found out that I had a gift for playing instruments by ear. So now I have the best of both worlds. However, I like to get off the dots as soon as possible. After all, those dots are somone else's idea of how that combination of notes should be played.

Thanks for those comments George

 

[nathen]

Of course now I've posted a comment, I see there are three previous pages of comments, duh! Now I've woken up, I really appreciate all the previous comments.

I played the piano for umpteen years by ear, having been given a few chords by my faher who was a professional piano player. However, it wasn't until I learned scales and how chords were made up that I could improvise and make up my own music. I love just sitting down at the piano or accordion and just play whatever comes to me.

Best of both worlds.

Nathen

 

[Glenn]

I love playing by ear too. My wife calls it a "noodling session".
My problem with it though is sometimes you come up with what you consider a gem and want to preserve it and somehow make it more concrete.
This is where notes are critical for me. The step between serendipity and "voila" come and listen to what I've just composed, is via notes for me. Otherwise I forget everything.

 

[Pippa]

However, it wasnt until I learned scales and how chords were made up that I could improvise and make up my own music.

Thats the advantage of the dots for an academic like me - I learn by intellectualising and understanding theory. I think its amazing that the by-earrists just get it, but personally I need the sit down and concentrate approach. In my music A-level group at school we were 50:50, interestingly those of us that were dottists were also the mathematicians.

 

[Glenn]

interestingly those of us that were dottists were also the mathematicians.

[/quote]
Interesting. Ive found that correlation too.
At school the I can do it even without practice types were more towards the arts subjects, whilst us nerdy types would put the sheet music up at band practice and stare fixedly at it.

 

[george garside]

The arts - v - science/maths is a new slant on it (for me ) although I am not convinced its accurate! . It could be that there are two slightly different way brains are wired and if so it would have an influence.

However to contradict that I have never considered myself to be an 'arty' type, nor have others as I am usualy labelled as being extremely practical. Also ' byearing' is a skill that can be tought to those who don't have it 'naturally' . Indeed teaching students to play by ear is something I specialise in and this has included some very experienced dotists one of whom was a very experienced and qualified piano teacher. When she approached me for lessons I was somewhat puzzled as to why she needed them whjen she had a music room complete with grand piano and shelves full of dots. Her answer surprised me , it was '' You buggers hand craft every note'' and I have to play exactly what somebody else has written''. Other dotists have wanted to learn to play by ear so as ato be able to play in sessions etc etc or join in with other people on the hoof.

There is in fact more of a problem teaching a byearist to work from the dots for the simple reason that as soon as he/she has the outline of the tune he/she can play it far quicker than they can read the dots and so dot reading never progressed beyond grasping the rudiments. In this situation it may be better to start learning the dots and learning a completely unrelated instrument at the same time so both progress at the same rate.

Going slightly off topic I regard leaning to read music and/or learning to play by ear as in many ways separate from learning to play an instrument . It doesn't matter how good one is at either or both . Without a high degree of manual dexterity and skilled operation of the machine ( which is at the end of the day what most instruments are!) whatever is being processed in the head from whatever source will not sound good.

Or to put it another way by ear or from the dots only needs to be learned once and can then be used to paly any instrument that hyou have the technical/manual skill to handle well.

george
george

 

[Glenn]

How about the inbetween way (what the Dutch would call the Polder Model).
By this I mean those that learn from the sheet music but sort of abandon it later on, only using it as a comfort blanket.
I fear I fall into this neither one nor 'tother group.

When I played in a jazz/blues band, the written music we had was very basic. It consisted of just chord sequences and assumed you knew the basic tune.
This was fine and I could get on pretty well with just this.
However, even this was necessary for me to jog my memory into action.
If for some reason I didn't have the chord sequence for the song, even though I knew it well and had only played it a few weeks earlier, I would have to hobble through the tune making notes on the back of an envelope a few times until I could reconstruct it. The others in the band just got on with it.
Now maybe it's just a very bad memory, but I'm not sure.
Sometimes with the accordion I have a complete mental block on what key to start with a piece I know well.
I then open the sheet music, scan a few bars and then I can start, after which the sheet music is hardly looked at.
I think I'm still running on 64k whilst everyone else is in the Gbytes. :!:

 

[hatless]

I suspect it's a right brain v left brain thing. We use both sides, of course, but which one dominates? The analytical, symbolic left, or the 'get a feel for the whole thing' right?

I play the piano only from dots. I can pick out a melody by ear (not with complete accuracy) but I can't harmonise it. On the accordion, with its built in chords helpfully arranged I can, and I really enjoy the fact that I can improvise on it, not well and not fluently, but enough to be very rewarding. It gives my right brain an outing, and that feels good.

'Noodling' is, incidentally, a word I've come across before to describe what many concert pianists would do in the long ago days, when they would precede pieces of music with a few chords and notes, presumably to change to the key of the new piece. I collect piano recordings, and I have just a few very old ones that preserve this noodling.