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CBA beginners or experienced players

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Geronimo

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maugein96 post_id=57316 time=1524001789 user_id=607 said:
dan post_id=57260 time=1523929915 user_id=1712 said:
It helps me find my place without noisily prodding five buttons to figure it out.
Customer:- Im interested in those accordions that have buttons on both sides.

Accordion store salesman:- That will be the Chromatic Button Accordion, sir. We have 2 types of B system, 2 types of C system, 3, 4, or 5 row, International peg type bass buttons or stepped mushroom buttons. Would you like the treble couplers mounted on the grille or on the rear, and will it be basses arranged in 3x3, or 4x2. Oh, and I forgot to mention which colour(s) of treble buttons would you like, and whether you want one with a bass converter?
Thats not the salesman but the bouncer.
 

debra

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maugein96 post_id=57316 time=1524001789 user_id=607 said:
...
Customer:- Im interested in those accordions that have buttons on both sides.

Accordion store salesman:- That will be the Chromatic Button Accordion, sir. We have 2 types of B system, 2 types of C system, 3, 4, or 5 row, International peg type bass buttons or stepped mushroom buttons. Would you like the treble couplers mounted on the grille or on the rear, and will it be basses arranged in 3x3, or 4x2. Oh, and I forgot to mention which colour(s) of treble buttons would you like, and whether you want one with a bass converter?

Customer:- I honestly dont think Ive got enough years left to make my mind up. Whats the best deal on those accordions with piano keys, and if they are half as damn complicated as those accordions with buttons wheres the nearest guitar store?

Good example, quite funny.

But the reality is even much more complicated: do you want 3, 4, 5 or 6 row (you forgot the balkan instruments which are 6 row b-griff), you also forgot about the 7-row bass system which is 3+4, you forgot about stepped or flat keyboard (flat also known as Swiss), the MIII melody bass versus convertor, a convertor with L+L or L+M (or L+L+H or L+M+H), 4 reeds, 5 reeds, LMMM or LMMH, and how many cents of tremolo, etc., etc....
The process of ordering an accordion is actually very complex.

I dont know how many options there are in guitars, but not possibly even close to accordions...
 
M

maugein96

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Hi Paul,

The truth is here in the UK any potential CBA buyer with no previous knowledge or experience of the instrument would probably given the "choice" of taking the only one in the shop, which would be a 5 row C system, with bass arranged 4x2. Not many UK dealers will have more than one or two CBAs in stock. A very few do tend to have a small selection, but they deal by appointment only, which I'm not really up for.

I once ordered a Piermaria CBA (Italian built but to French spec) via a dealer in England. I told him I just wanted one off the shelf, but was advised that wasn't possible, and they were all custom built. I didn't believe him but never fancied going to Italy to find out. I had to fill out a sheet with all the options, in which I merely specified the colour as an option. A few months later I phoned the dealer for an update when I was told that the treble side was complete but there was an issue with the bass configuration. I told him I just wanted the standard French 3x3, but he said he had stipulated 4x2, and Piermaria were refusing to proceed any further with the build until they knew what the situation was. I had clearly indicated 3x3 on the form, but the dealer decided the box must be 4x2 (no doubt in case I returned it or traded it in when he would have had extreme bother selling a 3x3 bass in the UK).

After another few months there was still no accordion, and when I phoned the dealer again another member of staff told me he was in ill health (which was true). The paperwork relative to the order was not to hand and we were in pre-internet days. Piermaria weren't up for dealing with anybody other than their approved distributors, and I couldn't get a contact address for them. A full year after the order was placed I still had no instrument, and was about to go through divorce proceedings. I was therefore obliged to cancel the order, and lost my deposit of £400. I considered taking legal action against the shop, but I would need to engage an English lawyer as the "contract" was subject of English law, and I live in Scotland where we have a different legal system altogether. The cost of proceeding with the claim would amount to more than any compensation I would have received, and the instrument never left Italy. Somebody in mainland Europe probably bought it "off the shelf" at discount after they had built it to 3x3, or whatever.

A lot of my cynicism and negativity about accordions is probably centred around several bad experiences I've had in relation to them. Part of my problem has been self inflicted by choosing to use instruments that are not popular here in the UK, but that was my choice and I've got to live with it.

Thanks for enlightening me to the other variations I forgot. There is a Swiss model flat keyboard CBA in a shop not far from here. I think the guy has had it in the shop for longer than anybody has owned it. I made an enquiry about it some years ago, when the shop owner referred to it as "Oh, that ******* thing?" Needless to say he still has it in stock!

Electric guitars are easy. Choice of neck, pick-ups, pickguard, and colour scheme are about the limit, with any other mods usually being within the scope of most players, and can be added later.
 

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I think I'll reconfigure my C system buttons to the B system layout. That should help protect my original compositions from plagiarism.
 
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Geronimo

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WaldoW post_id=57498 time=1524540524 user_id=1663 said:
I think Ill reconfigure my C system buttons to the B system layout. That should help protect my original compositions from plagiarism.
Just be sure to retain the buttons you play. I actually close one trivial accompaniment of mine for something I sing with a chromatic run in the wrong system.
 

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jozz

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maugein96 post_id=57336 time=1524040925 user_id=607 said:
Electric guitars are easy. Choice of neck, pick-ups, pickguard, and colour scheme are about the limit, with any other mods usually being within the scope of most players, and can be added later.

:ugeek:

ahem arent we forgetting something here?

top, cabinet, combo? effects train, stompboxes modulators delay/reverb...
 
G

Geronimo

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jozz post_id=57519 time=1524636616 user_id=2600 said:
maugein96 post_id=57336 time=1524040925 user_id=607 said:
Electric guitars are easy. Choice of neck, pick-ups, pickguard, and colour scheme are about the limit, with any other mods usually being within the scope of most players, and can be added later.

:ugeek:

ahem arent we forgetting something here?

top, cabinet, combo? effects train, stompboxes modulators delay/reverb...
Im actually pretty close to getting my desired accordion sound without reverb and EQ™ which means that I pick the kind of microphone placement resulting in the amount of reverb and EQ I find suitable.

Notice here the microphone on the left (players and picture perspective, ends up on the right in the video). Its labelled an omnidirectional but still has slightly different characteristics depending on input direction. Its placed in a corner between an accordion case and the hard floor. That reduces the reverb amount from the usual input of an omni and amplifies the bass response. The result is a balance between bass and chord sound that is favorable to the bass without sounding unnatural.

The right mic is a cardioid in contrast and pointed at the treble parts of the accordion from quite close of a distance. Its principal direction is slanted downwards in order to deemphasize breathing sounds: for some stupid reason I tend to be sort-of synchronous in breathing with the bellows which does not exactly help to make critical bellows changes inconspicuous.

So I get natural unprocessed sound in that manner which is nothing at all like what I actually hear myself. Of course, with an electric guitar that natural unprocessed ideal/delusion is not feasible since the unprocessed signal is electric in origin (and you cannot put up acoustic guards and stuff to influence it naturally) and sucks without processing.
 

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maugein96

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Hi Jozz,

As usual I was being over-simplistic to try and make a comparison. Hope nobody breaks into your house in the dark as I reckon it would take a day or two to put everything back where it was!

In my old guitar days in a third rate rock band every new pedal had to be tried and tested and it was a competition to see who could make the weirdest sound. These days I only play musical instruments at home and all I use are reverb and delay.

I got rid of all the fancy gadgets so that I could actually hear the clean sound of the guitars, and just use little modelling amps.

The only accordion I ever owned with electrics fitted was a Crosio with bass mics, and I never used them.

I once considered a digital accordion, but as I couldnt even work out how to save and program sounds on a Fender Mustang amp, I decided that Id better wait a century or two until I had caught up with the technology.

Ive never played an accordion to an audience very often, and from what you describe with regard to setting everything up then Im pretty glad about that. Mine just make the sounds they do when they are strapped on, as I simply dont have the technical knowledge to make them do anything else.

In the earlier days of French musette, some of the more adventurous players would play single flute reeds through amplifiers in the 30s and 40s, before more sophisticated equipment became available.

Heres an example of the typical sound quality from Emile Carrara, and he was one of the better exponents!

 
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Geronimo

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maugein96 post_id=57529 time=1524665836 user_id=607 said:
In the earlier days of French musette, some of the more adventurous players would play single flute reeds through amplifiers in the 30s and 40s, before more sophisticated equipment became available.

Heres an example of the typical sound quality from Emile Carrara, and he was one of the better exponents!

Could be pretty much any instrument (though the articulation gives it away) but part of the problem might be the quality of the recording. Certainly piercing enough without requiring a 3-reed tremolo. Probably not the worst setup available at that time for live acts.

One really cannot tell all that much from todays perspective. The massive availability as well as the quality of recording equipment and of digital instruments led to different sound standards and different forms of purisms and tastes in our times.
 

jozz

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maugein96 post_id=57529 time=1524665836 user_id=607 said:
Ive never played an accordion to an audience very often, and from what you describe with regard to setting everything up then Im pretty glad about that. Mine just make the sounds they do when they are strapped on, as I simply dont have the technical knowledge to make them do anything else.

I guess were straying off topic a bit but,

probably like you, what Im after for the accordion is the most clear and natural sound. What you hear through the pickups should ideally be no different from what you are hearing from close-up. Problem is this takes some effort and cost indeed.

But once its dialed in, I dont touch it anymore. Im nearly there.

With elec.guitars its the trick to get the most modulated sounds imaginable. :twisted:
 
G

Geronimo

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jozz post_id=57574 time=1524737784 user_id=2600 said:
maugein96 post_id=57529 time=1524665836 user_id=607 said:
Ive never played an accordion to an audience very often, and from what you describe with regard to setting everything up then Im pretty glad about that. Mine just make the sounds they do when they are strapped on, as I simply dont have the technical knowledge to make them do anything else.

I guess were straying off topic a bit but,

probably like you, what Im after for the accordion is the most clear and natural sound. What you hear through the pickups should ideally be no different from what you are hearing from close-up.
Ah, but the most clear and natural sound may well be quite different from what you are hearing from close-up. Reproducing the close-up sound is a job for archivists, not for musicians. As long as your live amplification is part of your sound production, you want to optimize that sound rather than your close-up sound.

You can go for a clear and natural sound on an electric guitar as well without confusing it with what you are hearing from close-up on the instrument itself.
With elec.guitars its the trick to get the most modulated sounds imaginable. :twisted:
It depends on the goals you are trying to achieve. For polyphonic play, most modulated tends to be a problematic fit.
 

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