New here, need help choosing a CBA

[Vero]

Hello everyone.

My name is Vero and I'm a new member, glad to be here. I live in France and I play PA as an amateur. Recently I'm thinking about buying a CBA and start learning. Hopefully I can get some advices on what to choose, thank you very much.

My PA is a standard one (41/120 LMMH no cassotto) which I got twenty years ago, this time I would like to buy an italian CBA LMMH with no less than 96 traditional basses. My PA weighs 11.7kg and I hope the CBA could be lighter than 11 kg.

My budget is around 6000-7000 euros. After some time picking, I think Fisitalia's 42.45-TC is pretty good (42/96-4/5-11/5, double cassotto, 10.5kg), but other than this brand, it seems no other Italian brand can provide a CBA cassotto in my budget, (and there are very few CBA cassotto under 11kg). My friend recommended me Bugari's 502/ARS and 470/CHC, both are of double cassotto and weigh 10.2kg, but they both are much more expensive.


I'm wondering if Fisitalia 42.45-TC is a good choice? Is it worth the effort to try to raise my budget by 1000-2000 euros to get the Bugari or do you guys have any other good options to recommend (within my budget)? Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Many thanks,

 

[debra]

The Fisitalia is very similar to the Bugari 470 and 502 (the difference between the two Bugari models is pretty small, probably just different reeds, all tipo-a-mano at least, like the Fisitalia). The Bugari models are listed as 10.2kg. The Bugari accordions come with a palm switch (master by default, but another choice is possible). I have worked on Fisitalia and Bugari accordions and trust Bugari more. The larger factory is less likely to make silly mistakes that are more common in small factories (in my experience).
The Bugari should not be "much more expensive". I don't know where you were thinking of buying/getting the accordion. But a significant price difference is probably due to the different profit margins dealers try to maintain (in exchange for possible warranty service). You should get the price difference down to less than 500 and it will pay off if you later decide that perhaps CBA isn't for you and you want to sell the instrument. A Bugari 470 or 502 is an easier sell than a Fisitalia.
If you can up your budget I'd spend it on the three chin switches they can install. (You can choose which registers to put on the chin switches.)

 

[Vero]

The Fisitalia is very similar to the Bugari 470 and 502 (the difference between the two Bugari models is pretty small, probably just different reeds, all tipo-a-mano at least, like the Fisitalia). The Bugari models are listed as 10.2kg. The Bugari accordions come with a palm switch (master by default, but another choice is possible). I have worked on Fisitalia and Bugari accordions and trust Bugari more. The larger factory is less likely to make silly mistakes that are more common in small factories (in my experience).
The Bugari should not be "much more expensive". I don't know where you were thinking of buying/getting the accordion. But a significant price difference is probably due to the different profit margins dealers try to maintain (in exchange for possible warranty service). You should get the price difference down to less than 500 and it will pay off if you later decide that perhaps CBA isn't for you and you want to sell the instrument. A Bugari 470 or 502 is an easier sell than a Fisitalia.
If you can up your budget I'd spend it on the three chin switches they can install. (You can choose which registers to put on the chin switches.)

Hello Paul, thanks for the reply. You were right as according to the factory, the Bugari 470/CHC and 502/ARS is the same accordion but with different reeds ( the first one with TAM reeds and the second one has hand-made reeds).

I understand that Bugari has a slight advantage over Fisitalia in the weight and the palm switch but they do differ a lot in the price. I got the quote from Bugari the manufacturer since I don't know any dealer, and taking 470 as an example, it would be of the same price level with Fisitalia if we don't include the VAT and shipping fees. That is approximately 1500 euros' difference. I just wonder if the slight advantage is worth the price. (I have to admit it's hard for me to raise my budget anyway...)

What do you mean by "get the price difference down to less than 500 "? Is the manufacturer's offer negotiable? But I don't think I'm capable of haggling down a thousand euros.

By the way, would you like to talk about the silly mistakes of small factories that you experienced?

 

[debra]

...

What do you mean by "get the price difference down to less than 500 "? Is the manufacturer's offer negotiable? But I don't think I'm capable of haggling down a thousand euros.

By the way, would you like to talk about the silly mistakes of small factories that you experienced?

Prices with dealers are more negotiable than with factories. But prices given over the phone or in email are likely not the real deal. You need to actually go to the factory and ask what the best is they can do... and you absolutely need to go to the factory to collect the finished instrument and do extensive testing so the most obvious flaws can still be corrected while you are there.
Are you sure Fisitalia is giving you numbers that include VAT and shipping? (Especially VAT.) In Italy it is still customary for prices to not include VAT.
Of course small companies like Fisitalia must charge lower prices because otherwise they would have trouble selling anything at all.
in terms of silly mistakes I have seen for instance 1) bellow straps fitted with screws that go through the wood and stick out 2/3 of the screw thread, so there is not much actually holding on inside the wood, 2) reeds not positioned correctly or flat against the reed block, causing the inside reed to hit the side wall, or the inside valve to not open properly, 3) a cassotto not sealed on the inside so you get a massive air leak, 4) a keyboard mechanism where the levers going from key to pallet touch each other somewhere, or touch the register mechanism... There are many things that can go wrong and while most is not that serious it's best to know a bit about accordion repair in order to fix the problems. (The only serious problem was the cassotto not sealed, because the air loss throws off the tuning.)

 

[Vero]

Prices with dealers are more negotiable than with factories. But prices given over the phone or in email are likely not the real deal. You need to actually go to the factory and ask what the best is they can do... and you absolutely need to go to the factory to collect the finished instrument and do extensive testing so the most obvious flaws can still be corrected while you are there.
Are you sure Fisitalia is giving you numbers that include VAT and shipping? (Especially VAT.) In Italy it is still customary for prices to not include VAT.
Of course small companies like Fisitalia must charge lower prices because otherwise they would have trouble selling anything at all.
in terms of silly mistakes I have seen for instance 1) bellow straps fitted with screws that go through the wood and stick out 2/3 of the screw thread, so there is not much actually holding on inside the wood, 2) reeds not positioned correctly or flat against the reed block, causing the inside reed to hit the side wall, or the inside valve to not open properly, 3) a cassotto not sealed on the inside so you get a massive air leak, 4) a keyboard mechanism where the levers going from key to pallet touch each other somewhere, or touch the register mechanism... There are many things that can go wrong and while most is not that serious it's best to know a bit about accordion repair in order to fix the problems. (The only serious problem was the cassotto not sealed, because the air loss throws off the tuning.)

Thanks for the explanation, I probably won't get a chance to go to the manufacturer, I'll have to check when there's a musical instrument fair so I can try out the instruments then.

 

[debra]

Thanks for the explanation, I probably won't get a chance to go to the manufacturer, I'll have to check when there's a musical instrument fair so I can try out the instruments then.

There used to be the Frankfurter Musikmesse but alas it did not last beyond the Covid pandemic. Many accordion manufacturers used to be there and we got to try many similar accordions from each of them. Some manufacturers will probably be having an exhibit at the World Music Festival in Innsbruck (May 29 - June 1) which is a large competition for accordion ensembles and orchestras.

 

[Vero]

There used to be the Frankfurter Musikmesse but alas it did not last beyond the Covid pandemic. Many accordion manufacturers used to be there and we got to try many similar accordions from each of them. Some manufacturers will probably be having an exhibit at the World Music Festival in Innsbruck (May 29 - June 1) which is a large competition for accordion ensembles and orchestras.

Thanks, I really appreciate your insights.

 

[Vero]

There used to be the Frankfurter Musikmesse but alas it did not last beyond the Covid pandemic. Many accordion manufacturers used to be there and we got to try many similar accordions from each of them. Some manufacturers will probably be having an exhibit at the World Music Festival in Innsbruck (May 29 - June 1) which is a large competition for accordion ensembles and orchestras.

Hello so here is a little update, I just borrowed a CBA from a friend and I'm going to experience it in depth before I decide to buy one. I'm currently working on scales and I'm finding it a bit hard to make up my own fingerings for some small pieces. Do you know of any junior level sheet books with C-griff fingerings?

 

[Ffingers]

Hello so here is a little update, I just borrowed a CBA from a friend and I'm going to experience it in depth before I decide to buy one. I'm currently working on scales and I'm finding it a bit hard to make up my own fingerings for some small pieces. Do you know of any junior level sheet books with C-griff fingerings?

"Complete Accordion Method" By Father and son Lucien and Richard Galliano is as good as I have been able to find as a tutorial.
It include down loadable sound samples for all the exercises.
The publisher is Hal Leonard.

 

[debra]

Hello so here is a little update, I just borrowed a CBA from a friend and I'm going to experience it in depth before I decide to buy one. I'm currently working on scales and I'm finding it a bit hard to make up my own fingerings for some small pieces. Do you know of any junior level sheet books with C-griff fingerings?

Sorry, I was mostly studying everything by myself, discovering my own fingerings. (After about 40 years of playing PA I know how to find fingerings that work for me.) I just started with all the pieces I needed to learn for my ensembles and orchestras.

 

[Vero]

"Complete Accordion Method" By Father and son Lucien and Richard Galliano is as good as I have been able to find as a tutorial.
It include down loadable sound samples for all the exercises.
The publisher is Hal Leonard.

Thanks so much! I'll go check it on Fnac!

 

[Vero]

Sorry, I was mostly studying everything by myself, discovering my own fingerings. (After about 40 years of playing PA I know how to find fingerings that work for me.) I just started with all the pieces I needed to learn for my ensembles and orchestras.

That's awesome!! I wish I could play the CBA well someday.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Hello everyone.

My name is Vero and I'm a new member, glad to be here. I live in France and I play PA as an amateur. Recently I'm thinking about buying a CBA and start learning. Hopefully I can get some advices on what to choose, thank you very much.

My PA is a standard one (41/120 LMMH no cassotto) which I got twenty years ago, this time I would like to buy an italian CBA LMMH with no less than 96 traditional basses. My PA weighs 11.7kg and I hope the CBA could be lighter than 11 kg.

My budget is around 6000-7000 euros. After some time picking, I think Fisitalia's 42.45-TC is pretty good (42/96-4/5-11/5, double cassotto, 10.5kg), but other than this brand, it seems no other Italian brand can provide a CBA cassotto in my budget, (and there are very few CBA cassotto under 11kg). My friend recommended me Bugari's 502/ARS and 470/CHC, both are of double cassotto and weigh 10.2kg, but they both are much more expensive.


I'm wondering if Fisitalia 42.45-TC is a good choice? Is it worth the effort to try to raise my budget by 1000-2000 euros to get the Bugari or do you guys have any other good options to recommend (within my budget)? Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Many thanks,

Here in the link below is a Paolo Soprani "Internazionale" (their CBA model name) with cassotto, apparently priced in your range. Reed grade not mentioned.

"Castelfidardo Musica" is both an online and brick/mortar concern that seems to sell a few marques that are venerable brand names which fell by the wayside over the years but were licensed by other Italian makers in a consortium acronymned PASCO Italia. Which Castelfi factory(ies) are now contracted to do the building under these badges I don't know---could be Fisitalia for that matter---but current Paolo Sopranis seem very nice.

It's 11.2kg. They do list other Internazionales weighing less, both 3 and 4 voice, in 96 and 120 bass configs, but without cassotto. Are you sure you need it for your first CBA? I'd find that a living hell, personally. YMMV, of course.

Paolo S. mod. Internaz. 46(87)/120/4°- 5°, 5 row of buttons, C griff, LMMH, 2 voices in cassotto, col. BLACK - Nero traforo PS

www.castelfidardomusica.it

 

[Ventura]

well Vero, since this thread is alive again i would just
like to urge you to save and plan and take a week
later this year and drive down to visit Fisitalia and,
if you like that model once you have tried it,
then bring it back with you

Paris to Ancona is not a difficult drive, you can stop for
a night at several enjoyable places along the way..
a day in Rome is always fun and the drive across from
there is a pleasant highway

the people at Fisitalia are very friendly and once you meet them
and see their factory and equipment you will enjoy your new
accordion even more.. also he can fine tune it to your preference
before you leave, as that is easy for him to do.. take your PA with
you so he can hear the sound you are accustomed to as reference..

if you have been working with a dealer in your area, they can
be kept in the sale.. you are then merely acting as your own
delivery service rather than Eurosender or UPS this should be
reflected in a discounted final price

bonne courage !

 

[Vero]

Here in the link below is a Paolo Soprani "Internazionale" (their CBA model name) with cassotto, apparently priced in your range. Reed grade not mentioned.

"Castelfidardo Musica" is both an online and brick/mortar concern that seems to sell a few marques that are venerable brand names which fell by the wayside over the years but were licensed by other Italian makers in a consortium acronymned PASCO Italia. Which Castelfi factory(ies) are now contracted to do the building under these badges I don't know---could be Fisitalia for that matter---but current Paolo Sopranis seem very nice.

It's 11.2kg. They do list other Internazionales weighing less, both 3 and 4 voice, in 96 and 120 bass configs, but without cassotto. Are you sure you need it for your first CBA? I'd find that a living hell, personally. YMMV, of course.

Paolo S. mod. Internaz. 46(87)/120/4°- 5°, 5 row of buttons, C griff, LMMH, 2 voices in cassotto, col. BLACK - Nero traforo PS

www.castelfidardomusica.it

Hello, first of all thank you for the recommendation. I have to say both the configs and the price is nice for me. But I don't really consider this brand, I think I heard it was shut down a few years ago. So...don't know what's really going with this brand now...
As for choosing a CBA with cassotto, I want to do it all in one step. It’s heavy, but a little bit lighter than my old PA, so I think I can live with that.

 

[Vero]

i would just
like to urge you to save and plan and take a week
later this year and drive down to visit Fisitalia and,
if you like that model once you have tried it,
then bring it back with you

Paris to Ancona is not a difficult drive, you can stop for
a night at several enjoyable places along the way..
a day in Rome is always fun and the drive across from
there is a pleasant highway

the people at Fisitalia are very friendly and once you meet them
and see their factory and equipment you will enjoy your new
accordion even more.. also he can fine tune it to your preference
before you leave, as that is easy for him to do.. take your PA with
you so he can hear the sound you are accustomed to as reference..

Hello！You've managed to convince me，I think I need to start making plans!