Walker
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If you were going to choose a new (standard bass) accordion that would be your main instrument. Would you go 4 voice or 5 voice? Also, why might you choose one over the other?
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Treble Voices: 4 or 5?
- Thread starter Walker
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When my wife and I wanted new (better) accordions almost 25 years ago we opted for 5 voice treble (Bugari 285/ARS/C). This is mainly useful when the accordion offers many registers, including a series with MM and a series with MMM. Note that the older Hohner Morino V and VI for instance only offered M versus MMM and no option for MM. That's not so good.
With a 5 voice accordion there are 32 possible register combinations, including a mute. Accordions tend to not offer all possibilities but give you up to 15 registers, so you should check carefully whether the accordion you want offers all registers you want.
While 5 voice can be considered "better" than 4 voice there is a drawback: size and weight. A 5 voice accordion is generally bulkier than a 4 voice and probably around 1kg (2 pounds) heavier.
If you have deep pockets, want 5 voice, compact and great sound the best accordion on the market is the Beltuna Leader V. We didn't buy it because our pockets were not deep enough.
At the moment we have several accordions, including just one that is 5 voice. For some "light" music the 5 voice is useful (using MMM). For classical music 4 voice is enough (you don't need a lot of tremolo) and the slightly lower weight becomes more important as you get older...
With a 5 voice accordion there are 32 possible register combinations, including a mute. Accordions tend to not offer all possibilities but give you up to 15 registers, so you should check carefully whether the accordion you want offers all registers you want.
While 5 voice can be considered "better" than 4 voice there is a drawback: size and weight. A 5 voice accordion is generally bulkier than a 4 voice and probably around 1kg (2 pounds) heavier.
If you have deep pockets, want 5 voice, compact and great sound the best accordion on the market is the Beltuna Leader V. We didn't buy it because our pockets were not deep enough.
At the moment we have several accordions, including just one that is 5 voice. For some "light" music the 5 voice is useful (using MMM). For classical music 4 voice is enough (you don't need a lot of tremolo) and the slightly lower weight becomes more important as you get older...
colinm
Well-known member
4 voice, 5 voice is just too bulky and heavy as you get older, and most accordion players are getting older
Siegmund
Well-known member
If cost and weight were no object, and I was going to be playing in ensembles a lot with other instruments, it would be nice to have a M-M+ register that would be "in tune, but with tremolo", rather than be sharp, and similarly nice to have the choice of narrower (MM+) or wider (M-M+).
But in practice, I have a feeling there's always going to be something else I want more than I want the fifth reed. I'd take 5 octaves of 4 reeds, over 4 octaves of 5 reeds, for instance.
I think for anyone who has more than one accordion, having at least one each of LMMH and LMMM in the collection might be a better plan.
But in practice, I have a feeling there's always going to be something else I want more than I want the fifth reed. I'd take 5 octaves of 4 reeds, over 4 octaves of 5 reeds, for instance.
I think for anyone who has more than one accordion, having at least one each of LMMH and LMMM in the collection might be a better plan.
Walker
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Interesting:
Bulky/heavy 5 voice versus lighter 4 voice with less coupler variety
Or
One 5 voice versus two 4 voice (LMMH & LMMM)
Or (for button accordionists)
5 voice (4 octave range) versus 4 voice (5 octave range)
So many choices...
Is the 1kg extra not worth the huge increase in tonal options, all available at the click of a switch... Surely better than switching reedblocks or having two accordions at a gig?
Bulky/heavy 5 voice versus lighter 4 voice with less coupler variety
Or
One 5 voice versus two 4 voice (LMMH & LMMM)
Or (for button accordionists)
5 voice (4 octave range) versus 4 voice (5 octave range)
So many choices...
Is the 1kg extra not worth the huge increase in tonal options, all available at the click of a switch... Surely better than switching reedblocks or having two accordions at a gig?
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Walker
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I had not considered Beltuna for a 5 voice instrument. Nice suggestion.
I think Brandoni have a cracker with the Infinity 149c model.
Mod. 149C - Brandoni Accordions
www.brandoniaccordions.it
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The Leader V is about the size of a double cassotto 4 voice instrument made by other factories. It's so compact that it's hard to believe they do manage to get the 5 voices in there, and then it has the amplisound as well...
Siegmund
Well-known member
One question is whether it counts as "a huge increase in tonal options": someone who likes lots of musette options might love a setup where they had the extra reeds tuned to say -7 and +14 cents, and could use MM- for narrow tremolo, MM+ or M-MM+ for medium, M-M+ for wide. But someone who mostly wants M-M+ to average out to 'in tune' will regard it as the same 15 options as an LMMH instrument just better in tune, and someone who isn't super sensitive to how wide tremolo is will just say "gee, I've got 3 different buttons that do the same thing now."
Same deal re two accordions at a gig: you might already decide you want cassotto for one piece and non-cassotto for another, or concert-tuned for one and tremolo for another (or even switch from diatonic to chromatic between numbers), and still need two instruments whether one has 5 reeds or not.
That said... if you were planning to get me a Poeta V for my birthday next month, don't send it back!
I know people who have their LMMMH accordion tuned so that LMMH is completely dry and the extra M reed adds tremolo. The choice between a dry MM and a wet MM and MMM seems more important to them than the choice to have different (non-zero) levels of tremolo in the same accordion.
Walker
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Super responses. The way I read this (in general) is that a 5 voice affords a greater degree of flexibility in tonal options, especially around nuances in musette/violin. However, unlike both of you, I don't see the main 'gain' in having 'musette' options. To me, it's all about gaining the great organ-tone options. I love the MMMH sound and LH or MH, for example.
Interestingly, we all have different ideas on the ideal instrument, whether it's Paul's Beltuna, Seigmund's Victoria or my preference for the Brandoni. Still, it would be good to try them all. Maybe I will get to Cremona Musica some time in the future.
However, in your respective countries, do you think 5 voice is out of favour/trend these days? Where I live, people generally only want 37/96 or smaller, and 4 voice max...
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I don't know about what's "in" in my country. People I know pretty much play whatever they can get their hands on. I hardly ever see anyone play a new accordion. Once in a while. Only myself crazy enough to but my cars have 265 and 150,000 so there's that. Maybe the pros but I don't personally know any.
skybrian
Newbie
I tried out some 4 reed accordions at Liberty Bellows and didn't hear a compelling reason to go beyond a 3 reed LMM. But then, I like smaller and lighter accordions and my hearing isn't normal.
When the Frankfurter Musikmesse still existed it was *the* place to go to try many accordions from many manufacturers in the course of a few hours. That's where initially we settled on the 5 voice Bugari 285/ARS and on our next visit (one or two years later) we discovered the Beltuna Leader V but didn't consider it further as it was so much more expensive (than the Bugari). It was a really nice accordion, but only for people with more money than we were willing to spend...
Walker
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I agree, you have to hear that 'something special' to make it worthwhile to add the extra weight and bulk to an instrument by having more voices. I like LMM, especially for the folky sounds with a light violin tone, magic.
For me the quintessential accordion sounds are musette based (MMM) and 'organ-tones' (LMH, LH etc). I find both sound profiles very intense, satisfying and contrasting, though I don't like musette to be too 'wet' as otherwise it gets a bit 'muddy' when playing chords etc.
However, the variations of the 5 voice accordion can get quite unusual...For me the quintessential accordion sounds are musette based (MMM) and 'organ-tones' (LMH, LH etc). I find both sound profiles very intense, satisfying and contrasting, though I don't like musette to be too 'wet' as otherwise it gets a bit 'muddy' when playing chords etc.
LLMMM: I played a byMarco once that had the voices, LLMMM. it had a very full musette plus an incredible 'double bassoon' sound.
LMMMH: Brandoni often place the bassoon and piccolo reeds in cassotto. It gives a very clear musette and warm organ-tones, but I personally prefer the piccolo tone to be a bit more 'piercing', so would only have bassoon and clarinet in cassotto.
32', 16', 8', 8', 4': Dallape used to make a special Supermaestro that had a 32' reed and it created some unbelievable organ-tone combinations, great for light classical stuff like Strauss waltzes, but I would miss the musette too much.
LMMHQ: A number of accordion makers sometimes use a 'quint' reed, which can be lovely, but more for classical/organ music than anything else in my opinion.
LMMHH: Not sure about the great benefit of this one, perhaps it's a little too subtle for me, but Zero Sette and Titano often use it in classical accordions. I suppose the extra H gives a stronger tone in HH and both voices will be outside of the tone chamber.
I visited once and it was great. Is there any possibility it might return in 2024? Or is it gone forever?
When it comes to 4 reed vs 5, I can pretty much tell you that I near never play the piccolo reed by itself, it is just too high pitched for most music, but where it does come in to play is any time it is used in conjunction with another reed, there is no "organ" sound like an accordion with very high and bassoon reeds together and anytime it is used, just adds a sparkle that a 4-reed accordion just cannot make. For me, that added weight and complexity is worth it. This is definitely not the case for everyone, and I can respect that. 
I make a lot of arrangements for accordion ensemble, and in them I quite often ask to use a single M reed outside of cassotto. On an accordion like the Morino the only way to achieve this is to play the piccolo in 8vb. I do this for instance to simulate an oboe and often an accordion that goes down to E or F can go low enough for an oboe part played using the H reed in 8vb.When it comes to 4 reed vs 5, I can pretty much tell you that I near never play the piccolo reed by itself, it is just too high pitched for most music, but where it does come in to play is any time it is used in conjunction with another reed, there is no "organ" sound like an accordion with very high and bassoon reeds together and anytime it is used, just adds a sparkle that a 4-reed accordion just cannot make. For me, that added weight and complexity is worth it. This is definitely not the case for everyone, and I can respect that.
Walker
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At the risk of stating the obvious, the H voice actually makes a rather good replication of the pitch of the musical instrument called the piccolo... D5 to C8 is the official sonic range and any 45 key accordion can manage that, but also a 41 key accordion only drops the most eye-wateringly high top 3 notes: Bb, B & C. I would happily give them a miss...
That's a really interesting point @debra about using H voice to replicate the oboe. I am fortunate to have a non cassotto free bass instrument LMMH, so I can use the M reed or the H reed to create the oboe effect. However, I personally find that I prefer the tone of the combined MH voice in mimicking the oboe. Interestingly, the old orchestral naming conventions typically refers to MH as Oboe... The more I think about it, I quite like the old register names.
That's a really interesting point @debra about using H voice to replicate the oboe. I am fortunate to have a non cassotto free bass instrument LMMH, so I can use the M reed or the H reed to create the oboe effect. However, I personally find that I prefer the tone of the combined MH voice in mimicking the oboe. Interestingly, the old orchestral naming conventions typically refers to MH as Oboe... The more I think about it, I quite like the old register names.
MH with both outside cassotto is indeed a closer representation of oboe, but on a cassotto accordion with LMMH and tremolo only the MH with the M in cassotto can be used and that MH does not sound like an oboe at all. The H played 8vb comes somewhat closer. Of course nothing on an accordion really sounds like the names sometimes used on registers (like bassoon, organ, oboe, flute violin, piccolo...)...
That's a really interesting point @debra about using H voice to replicate the oboe. I am fortunate to have a non cassotto free bass instrument LMMH, so I can use the M reed or the H reed to create the oboe effect. However, I personally find that I prefer the tone of the combined MH voice in mimicking the oboe. Interestingly, the old orchestral naming conventions typically refers to MH as Oboe... The more I think about it, I quite like the old register names.
Now I'll have to try that after work today on the Morino and Imperator just for laughs.
It doesn't? I'm crushed, I really was going for that Hammond B2 effect with the organ register!
Walker
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Take heart Jerry, to be fair the "accordion" register is pretty convincing.
So here's a question for anyone...
When it comes to registers on five voice accordions I have noticed three particular styles:
1. A straightforward selection of 13 to 15 switches
2. A selection of say 13 switches, arranged like for a LMMH accordion, but with two additional switches that engage or disengage the 5th voice, thereby giving 13 x 2 = 26 choices.
3. A selection of 25 individual switches.
Any thoughts about the three different mechanisms?
I lean towards the third option a bit...
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