Switching to CBA

[aaronishappy]

Been playing PA for nearly 2 years and while I love it, I now live in France where button accordions of both the chromatic and diatonic variety are dominant. I went to a really big music shop the other day, huge it was, with multiple floors, and while there was a nice selection of accordions there was not one single piano accordion. It leads me to believe, and certainly after doing some reading here, that the CBA is superior. From what I gather it is easier to play and learn tunes on due to its more logical button layout. Also, this is a minor thing, but aesthetically I think the CBA looks better too, theres something about piano keys on an instrument thats not a piano (or harmonium, harpsichord, etc) that that I dont like...

So all this makes me want to pick up the CBA, especially while I live in France because back home in Ireland no one plays the CBA, I had never even seen one until I came here.

However since I am still in relatively early stages (Im past beginner stage but definitely no expert) I am a bit weary of picking it up. So I ask to those who made the switch - how long did it take you to re learn the tunes on your CBA? Was it difficult? How long had you been playing for? Was it worth it? Also, general advice for someone who is thinking of making the switch... Thanks

 

[Anyanka]

Hi Aaron - go for it!

I switched after four years, and have now been playing CBA for two years. I found that the tunes that I'd played the most - i.e. Morris tunes - took the longest to relearn, whereas new tunes came quite easily. At the time of the switch, I was still in the No.1 Ladies Accordion Orchestra so I prioritised that repertoire, and played it on the CBA in a public performance about three months after switching. I reckon that after a year, my accordion playing was better than it had ever been on the PA, because the CBA suits me so much more. So yes, absolutely worth it for me - but see if you can borrow one first to make sure it suits you.

This summer, I spent a few days at an instrument makers' festival in France, and tried out all the CBAs there - there were lightweight top quality three-voice boxes available that you can't get in England. I now want a Fisart in addition to my lovely, but heavy Pigini.

 

[donn]

I started with CBA, but I did have enough knowledge of the piano keyboard, learned at an early age, that I could pick out a tune. It has taken me a pretty long time to get the hang of it, probably underestimated the learning challenge and taught myself a lot of poor habits. That won't apply to you, I hope.

The point I want to make is that a shop full of CBAs doesn't show that the CBA is superior, only that it will do, if that's what you want. The shops full of piano keyboard instruments in the English speaking world show that the piano keyboard will do, too. The shops full of B system CBAs in parts of Europe demonstrate that it will do as well as the C system you see mostly in France. Etc.

I envy your situation there - when it's time for me to get a new accordion, it will likely call for me to travel to France, or Portugal. You'll find that the full 120 stradella layouts there often have 3 bass button rows, and 3 chord rows, which is what I have learned to play. You don't have to buy into that relatively obscure system if you don't want to - I imagine, anyway, that there will also be standard Italian style layouts on the shelves, with 2 bass rows and 4 chord.

 

[JonathanC]

I made the switch from piano accordion to CBA about a year ago. I have never been much of a piano player but could muddle through. I find the CBA much easier to play because you can use the same finger patterns in whichever key you (or your singer!) decides to play in simply by changing your starting position. From that point alone I have found muscle memory came to me a lot quicker.
I am also a melodeon player primarily so I feel safer with buttons!

 

[donn]

There might be something to that - maybe working with a two dimensional array of buttons is a general faculty that we learn, and can translate to different array layouts.

 

[losthobos]

Changed after Emilio Allodi explained system to me...never looked back...equally useless on both....don't be fooled into thinking you can just move position to play in another key, not always so.....but the variable fingering options for difficult transitions are a huge bonus

 

[Deleted member 48]

Having started with C-system CBA right from the beginning, I have no personal expercience of switching systems.
What I have heard in conversations with accordionists having switched from PA to CBA is the factor age.
Most people switched PA to CBA in first year of conservatory or a few years after finishing conservatory and beginning a recitalist career.

Heard it took about 6 months to 1 year or 1,5 year maximum to get used to CBA, but important to mention is most of these people made the switch together with a conservatory trained CBA accordion teacher ! These experts can adapt/correct bad fingering habits the moment they occur.
If you try it at home alone, I think it's much more difficult. (I have heard of rare cases in the past of CBA accordion teachers having an improvised 1 year course for PA players who want to make the switch, but this was by some volunteer CBA accordion teachers at their own time and effort. I am not aware of official switch programs/courses )

Age and a flexible mind seem to be determinant factors.
And if you are a virtuoso PA player and mature aged, why change a succesfull PA accordion player and start a risky and difficult road?

Personally as someone said "muscle memory" is very easy on CBA, not only at key and scale level, but at every interval level (if you play on 5 rows CBA). Every interval has the same shape and grip. This facilitates muscle memory.

 

[donn]

Just remembered another unusual feature - French/Portuguese style accordions (even if made in Italy) have nailed reeds, rather than waxed. So you can leave the accordion in the hot sun without the risk that it will melt. I very much doubt anyone could hear a difference in sound, it's more about whether your accordion repairman likes to work with nailed reeds (and whether you like to haul your accordion in to the accordion repairman because the wax failed.)

Shop owner should be prepared to pull open the accordion, whereupon you can look for rust, accordion weevils and stuff, and also see whether it's wax or nails. The nailed version will put the reed plates on a leather surface, fastened with several nails around the outside.

 

[debra]

I changed to C-system CBA about 7 years ago after playing PA for about 40 years. I can play at more or less the same level on CBA than I could on PA but it did take upwards of 6 years to get there. And when I see a difficult piece (lots of fast notes) for the first time I still cannot grasp it as quickly as I could on PA. Still, the more compact layout of CBA is definitely worth the effort of making the change. I am definitely not going back!

 

[george garside]

since all the black and white notes are there on both piano accordion and continental changing to the continental B or C system requires nothing more than intensive scale practice and when this becomes an auto pilot job tunes played on one box can be played on t'other.

Whilst all major keys CAN be played with one scale on a 5 row it is better in the long run to learn the continental as a 3 row which requires a mere 3 scales for 12 keys which is a much better bargain than on a PA. Once the 3 scales are thoroughly learned the 4th (and 5th) rows can be used to simplify some fingering

The change from PA to continental does not need to be complicated by agonising about any 'theory' as it is simply a question of learning to finger a different and much more compact route through exactly the same scales!

george

 

[aaronishappy]

Thanks everyone. And to whoever said seeing CBAs in a shop as opposed to PAs doesnt mean its superior, thats true of course, its completely subjective, but I just mean after reading the praise for CBAs on this forum and the general internet leads me to believe there is a reason why no one switches over to PA from CBA Side note - why is the PA more popular in Anglophone countries than the CBA? How did that happen?

Can someone explain to me exactly how the layout works? Looking at a picture of a 5 row CBA I can only see a chromatic layout of notes, and I dont yet understand how you can play tunes in different keys by playing a different row, when all the notes are laid out exactly the same all the way up... Is there something glaringly obvious Im not getting!? Playing a tune on the first row, then playing it on say the 3rd row with the same fingering, how does that result in it being played in a different key? So confused...

Im at a stage where I feel myself progressing rapidly with the PA, I have about 30 solid minutes of Irish and klezmer tunes learned and find myself learning them quicker and quicker, I almost feel it would be a shame to put a stop to that and devote 3 months or whatever to learning a new system, but I guess 3 months isnt that long in the grand scale of things, and after reading through this forum it seems like it would be worth it!

Im just not sure how much it can be facilitated in Ireland, with regards to maintenance and teaching and such, since theyre more or less unheard of at home... (not so much unheard of as never ever ever seen)

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[george garside]

you need a keyboard chart ( plenty on internet) of a 5 row C system box. starting from C on outside row simply follow the pattern of CDEFGABC. that is the scale of C which uses the 3 outside rows. The note G is on the 2nd row and GABCDEF#G follow exactly the same pattern asC but using rows 234. D just the same but starting on 3rd row and using rows 345.

another way of looking at it is that each scale uses 3 rows with keys F#ACD# starting on outside row (!st row) GBbC#E starting on 2nd row and DFG#B starting on 3rd row

the pattern of each scale is absolutely identicle.

All 12 keys can be played using only rows 123 but 3 scale patterns are then required

george

 

[donn]

It's perfect for people who can compute vast sums in their heads in an instant and similar mental feats.

 

[george garside]

it may be that the continental is easier to get the hang of if you play by ear .By earists don't worry about where C# is or Eb is as they just 'think' the tune and the instructions automatically come down the arm to the fingers. That is of course provided the (one!) scale can be played fluently! No worrying about where named note is as in effect I suppose the mind is 'thinking' in terms of ''two higher- 3 lower etc etc''. if it doesn't sound quite right i.e an accidental is needed the appropriate one is usualy readily to hand.

The process is a bit like singing in that the singer knows how to operate the gob to produce a particular sound and doesn't need to know the note being sung by name!

george

 

[Anyanka]

re "easier to get the hang of if you play by ear": I'm a visual learner, and happier learning from notes than by ear - I started out by having a map of my keyboard on the music stand; that map is now in my head. The reason I find CBA easier (or let's be honest: superior) is because I don't have to stretch so far to reach notes. A two octave jump is a doddle. By playing across all five rows, I can keep my hand comfortable and relaxed.

re "It's perfect for people who can compute vast sums in their heads in an instant and similar mental feats." I'm quite happy with my brain power, but doing vast sums is not one of my strengths! On the contrary, the CBA suits me because I play intuitively rather than consciously, or by rules & regulations. One of the biggest advantages is the fact that the 'accidentals' are integrated in the button layout, i.e. one does not need to be aware whether one is playing a black or a white key.

As for transposing into other keys - dead easy, precisely because one plays intervals rather than specific keys.

Finally, the popularity of the PA over the CBA: probably due to the fact that the piano keyboard is reassuringly familiar for many people, whereas the buttons look alien. The accordion was seen as a portable piano (in German, it is know as the Skipper's Piano because it was so popular on board ships).

 

[donn]

I suppose the root of the piano keyboard's success is that the piano and other similar instruments need a big strong linkage that requires a linear keyboard, can't be folded up in rows like a button keyboard.

CBA might have been easier for me if I could see the buttons. That's another thing that I think is a little different about some French/Portuguese style accordions, the keyboard is attached a little farther away - I can see the buttons, but just barely and not well enough to make out what's happening, and I have as long a neck as anyone.

 

[george garside]

if you are sticking to the one scale method on a 5 row a useful learning tool, so to speak, is to cellotape a piece of cardbard on top of the right hand side of the box so that you can't look down at the buttons and therefore become intuitive in playing them. The same principle used to be used to teach touch typing by using typewriters with blank keys . It is also no different from learning the bass as you can only have a gander if you are a contortionist!
george

 

[Deleted member 48]

The piano keyboard is more linear than the 3 row CBA, but PA also has 2 rows.
The PA makes distinction between the row of white keys and the row of black keys.

I think many think the PA keyboard feels more natural, because in school they learn to sing the diatonic scale of C major, which has a succession of consonant and dissonant moments, ending in a relaxing B to C tonic ending.
But when you analyse the PA white keys row, it's order is uneven, whole tones are followed by half tones, the e-f and b-c intervals.

The CBA layout is even, the interval is half tone for the whole scale. The simplest of intervals, you count by adding always the same interval.
The chromatic scale however is very difficult to sing, because it doesn't feel "natural", there is no alternance of consonance and dissonance. Solfège teachers don't use the chromatic scale often as a warming up in singing classes.

Most people will always feel the white keys of the PA the "natural" keyboard, not knowing it is in fact a more complex layout than CBA.
The brain is more at ease with regular intervals, and the easiest is always repeating the same interval.
Counting natural numbers is always adding 1, the same number.
Walking in the woods, jogging, running, the distance between your left and right foot passes is always more or less the same distance, regardless of the speed you're going. Imagine your gym teacher telling you to run in groups of 7 with 2 passes half length...

The CBA is easier, but when you have to play the scale of C Major, and... let that be the first we have to learn (reason: singing the C scale...), CBA can feel unnatural to some piano players in the beginning.

If you would apply the same principle of perfect regular intervals to the piano keyboard, you'd have to lay out all piano keys in 1 row, with half tone as an interval. All 12 white keys in one row, and then starting the next octave.
But you'd have to break down the wall between the living room and the hall...
Or a PA accordion could be over 1 meter high... And the fingering technique for a 1 row PA would be unpractical.

 

[george garside]

Stephens theoretical explanation is spot on and will no doubt be appreciated by those who like such things. However going over to a continental requires nothing more than mastering either 1 or 3 scales aand then getting on with it!

george

 

[donn]

In my opinion as a theory, it weakness is that the premise is pure surmise. "The brain is more at ease with regular intervals" - oh yeah? Which brain is this? Operating an accordion is quite different from adding integers or running in the woods.

I propose that the linear organization and tactile black key structure of a piano keyboard is in fact easier, because while it's a regular pattern, it isn't as minutely regular as the button keyboard, but rather presents a repeating pattern at the octave scale of normal music. Very easy to orient yourself on that pattern - and also easy to play when the keyboard is bouncing around, because you have to be accurate in one direction only. It's a theory. The theory comes with a full refund if it turns out to be wrong - you may have back the 0 that you paid for it.