Proxima and the Future of Electronic Accordions

[AdamJoseph]

Whatever happened to this company? With Roland stopping production of the V accordions, I was hoping that Proxima was going to fill that void or at least create some renewed interest and competition. I wonder where the future of the digital accordion will end up. Even though I love my Roland accordions, I would love to see an accordion that was a little more modern and intuitive.

 

[JerryPH]

Me too.
The people that created Proxima created the Bugari EVO. Sadly their main priority was not so much to make a successor to the V-Accordion as much as it was to fill their pockets and run. Same thing with Proxima. They left EVO users in a lurch and called out bankruptcy and will do the same if/when the time comes. They also made all kinds of promises that took YEARS to mostly arrive. They were already pushing the EVO and it took 2 years to make a website, 3 years to make a catalog and 4 years to re;ease the price. They then completely avoided making ANY sales in North America and Europe for another year as they pushed hard in the Asian market.

All this time there was. NOT ONE place for support, only again 2 years later announced ONE and ONLY ONE place on earth for support… Petosa.
I would love to see more options, but the price some people want us to pay is a little too high.
These are the people that are running Proxima. Still want anything from them?

 

[SteveBox]

I've been curious about this myself, as it has been "coming soon" for a long time. I sent an inquiry to Petosa (US distributor) a month ago, and this is their reply:

Thank you for your email inquiry.

During the down time of pandemic and electronic component supply chain issues, Proxima has been working to further refine and improve electronic engineering designs, and even incorporated new components such as improved key contact sensors and other changes. Due to still lingering component supply issues, we are likely more accurately looking at early 2024, ultimately we can only relay what Italy predicts. It’s good to know they are healthy and moving forward as can.

We do have a prototype Proxima MIA P37 in the store available for audition.

 

[JerryPH]

How long have new cars been back on car lots, a bit more than a year? If they no longer have parts shortages, why would anyone else?

 

[dak]

How long have new cars been back on car lots, a bit more than a year? If they no longer have parts shortages, why would anyone else?

Because the margins on cars are higher? For what it's worth, bankrupting a car company is likely more profitable than bankrupting an accordion company. You just don't get the same dimension of investors for the latter.

 

[Ventura]

is musictech chopped liver ?

Claudio seems to continue to refine his digital box, and it is handled
by a few dealers in Europe, and since he has a lot of other stuff
in his product line (Mic's, Midi systems etc.) he is not gonna live or
die on one product

no-one in the USA that i can tell handles his accordions, though
several places have his Mic kits and such, and even if they could be
talked into it, you still have to meet the UL and Govt. testing standard
before it can legally be sold into the USA for retail sale. This process is not free
and if you only expect to sell a low number of an item like this, may not see a
justification for the expense and hassle of the process.

You are always free to buy one in Europe and bring it back

the main ownership issue is potential adjustment and repair if the device
proves not to be very robust, but Musictech does have a pretty good track
record.. if I felt i needed something current i would trust Mr. Sabbatini
a lot quicker than i would the people Jerry is referring to, that's for damn sure.

but i am likely to be happy with used Roland models and my MIDI excelsior's
until i reach the end, as i am wearing out faster than they are.

frankly, this is the only month i use the Roland 7 pretty much exclusively on Gig's
as i have so much dedicated Christmas song programming on it, and it makes
doing Nutcracker stuff amazing, makes the street lights and Silver Bells pop,
that i just leave the acoustics in the studio (excepting caroling)

but honestly i think if you guys could imagine what you wanna DO with
something new,FIRST, then you could find a way to do it with existing tech..
but i fear so many of you just like new stuff and hope it let's you do different
things but when you find out it doesn't so you sell it or pay for more programming
that you hope let's you do different things but then you find out it doesn't
so you want some new accordion samples in some virtual format with
amazing graphics and a sales pitch (and price) that won't quit so you buy
that and you hope it let's you do different things but then you find out it doesn't...

 

[Tom]

is musictech chopped liver ?

Claudio seems to continue to refine his digital box, and it is handled
by a few dealers in Europe, and since he has a lot of other stuff
in his product line (Mic's, Midi systems etc.) he is not gonna live or
die on one product

no-one in the USA that i can tell handles his accordions, though
several places have his Mic kits and such, and even if they could be
talked into it, you still have to meet the UL and Govt. testing standard
before it can legally be sold into the USA for retail sale. This process is not free
and if you only expect to sell a low number of an item like this, may not see a
justification for the expense and hassle of the process.

You are always free to buy one in Europe and bring it back

the main ownership issue is potential adjustment and repair if the device
proves not to be very robust, but Musictech does have a pretty good track
record.. if I felt i needed something current i would trust Mr. Sabbatini
a lot quicker than i would the people Jerry is referring to, that's for damn sure.

but i am likely to be happy with used Roland models and my MIDI excelsior's
until i reach the end, as i am wearing out faster than they are.

frankly, this is the only month i use the Roland 7 pretty much exclusively on Gig's
as i have so much dedicated Christmas song programming on it, and it makes
doing Nutcracker stuff amazing, makes the street lights and Silver Bells pop,
that i just leave the acoustics in the studio (excepting caroling)

but honestly i think if you guys could imagine what you wanna DO with
something new,FIRST, then you could find a way to do it with existing tech..
but i fear so many of you just like new stuff and hope it let's you do different
things but when you find out it doesn't so you sell it or pay for more programming
that you hope let's you do different things but then you find out it doesn't
so you want some new accordion samples in some virtual format with
amazing graphics and a sales pitch (and price) that won't quit so you buy
that and you hope it let's you do different things but then you find out it doesn't...

I don’t need no steenking new technology. All I wanna DO is find new songs that are easy to play, sound good, and make the people smile. Holy Grail of the day. I got plenty of accordions with plenty of do dads. In fact too many.

 

[debra]

I don’t need no steenking new technology. All I wanna DO is find new songs that are easy to play, sound good, and make the people smile. Holy Grail of the day. I got plenty of accordions with plenty of do dads. In fact too many.

Very well said!
However, I would love to have an instrument that looks, feels and sounds like a good quality real accordion but that never goes out of tune!
I was disappointed to experience that Roland did not offer that (it mostly lacked the real accordion sound I wanted) and if Proxima ever becomes a reality and delivers this, count me in! I'm spending too much time on tuning either my own accordions or the accordions of friends I play with!

 

[Tom]

Very well said!
However, I would love to have an instrument that looks, feels and sounds like a good quality real accordion but that never goes out of tune!
I was disappointed to experience that Roland did not offer that (it mostly lacked the real accordion sound I wanted) and if Proxima ever becomes a reality and delivers this, count me in! I'm spending too much time on tuning either my own accordions or the accordions of friends I play with!

Thanks Paul! Yeah, tuning is a problem, especially for people like you with a well developed ear. I pretty much ignore it where I can on the older instruments, although I have gotten some help from Jerry S. I have not gotten into tuning myself. So far the new accordions I have still sound fine (although not “perfect.”). If (when) they go I will have to do something as Jerry is getting on and I don’t know any other techs within 5 hours. I think that EVO that Breezy Bellows plays sounds pretty good, but you’re right, not an acoustic.

 

[Ventura]

but that never goes out of tune!

and that tuning issue largely was what powered Digital Piano's,
which took a decade or so to Mature and truly resemble Acoustics..

for Families and Parents on a budget who wanted to give their
children an opportunity to legit take lessons and have a decent reliable
instrument (headphones usually clinched the sale in the music store)

this was compared at the time to the normal "rent a spinet" programs and $40 - $60
tuning cost twice a year just to keep the horrible thing sounding half decent
and no WAY a drop action could ever feel like a grand piano,
but a carefully weighted Digital actually felt pretty good and a child migrating
to a Studio Piano at a school or competition was not at a huge disadvantage

 

[dak]

Very well said!
However, I would love to have an instrument that looks, feels and sounds like a good quality real accordion but that never goes out of tune!
I was disappointed to experience that Roland did not offer that (it mostly lacked the real accordion sound I wanted) and if Proxima ever becomes a reality and delivers this, count me in! I'm spending too much time on tuning either my own accordions or the accordions of friends I play with!

The last tuning my accordion got was from the late Wolfgang Glaß of Klingenthal, a retired accordion tuner. He tuned by ear. You didn't specify the cents of your tremolo but discussed the quality you wanted to have. And if it didn't came out the way you liked it, he redid it. Essentially he invested about an hour for a 41-note reed set. And when you were satisfied, he fine-tuned again after half a week. Since he tuned by ear, the tuning errors were not minimized by reed, but by the consistency of fifths and the sound of tremolo. Not that you could have easily told the difference when checking his work using a precision tuner...

Generally, the really amazing thing with those former professional tuners was not just the precision of the result but rather the incredible speed with which they achieved it. An amateur can certainly get close to the results with practice, but the speed with which those results are achieved takes decades of practice.

 

[Ventura]

and good morning Tom..

easy to play songs that sound good.. i bet you could pop my
Silver Bells background into your 4x and play it right off..

lemme get it converted to MP3 and do a preset to go along with it
ready next week and i will send it to you

 

[debra]

The last tuning my accordion got was from the late Wolfgang Glaß of Klingenthal, a retired accordion tuner. He tuned by ear. You didn't specify the cents of your tremolo but discussed the quality you wanted to have. And if it didn't came out the way you liked it, he redid it. Essentially he invested about an hour for a 41-note reed set. And when you were satisfied, he fine-tuned again after half a week. Since he tuned by ear, the tuning errors were not minimized by reed, but by the consistency of fifths and the sound of tremolo. Not that you could have easily told the difference when checking his work using a precision tuner...

Generally, the really amazing thing with those former professional tuners was not just the precision of the result but rather the incredible speed with which they achieved it. An amateur can certainly get close to the results with practice, but the speed with which those results are achieved takes decades of practice.

The word "late" suggests it has been a while since you had the accordion tuned. I am a pretty slow accordion tuner, but precise. With the piccolo reeds especially I tune them every day for three to five days in a row to get them exactly right. (I get them exactly right the first time, but they tend to go out of tune again and again and again until the tuning stabilizes after three to five tries.)
My experience is that for amateur players (like me) an accordion needs tuning after 4 or 5 years (but spot tuning in between complete tunings every time I hear a note going slightly out of tune). Most accordions I get in for tuning have not been tuned for 15 to 30 years and it is just unbelievable that the players did not realize much sooner that tuning was really needed. Not hearing that an accordion is out of tune is not just a property of amateurs but of some professionals as well.

 

[Tom]

and good morning Tom..

easy to play songs that sound good.. i bet you could pop my
Silver Bells background into your 4x and play it right off..

lemme get it converted to MP3 and do a preset to go along with it
ready next week and i will send it to you

Cool, thanks!!!!!

 

[debra]

and that tuning issue largely was what powered Digital Piano's,
which took a decade or so to Mature and truly resemble Acoustics..
...

Very good point. My digital Yamaha piano (with wooden keys and some sort of hammer mechanism) feels good to play and sounds like the Yamaha grand piano its sounds are sampled from. (I tried others, including a Kawai that sounded just as horrible as a real Kawai grand. Both where side by side, years ago, at the Frankfurter Musikmesse, and I played both.) Digital pianos have come a long way.
Digital accordions came to market a bit later, but by now I would expect them to have caught up and sound and feel like the real thing. Alas, the Roland FR8x is from 2013 and the FR4x from 2016 so we have basically had a technological standstill for about a decade now...

 

[Tom]

Not hearing that an accordion is out of tune is not just a property of amateurs but of some professionals as well.

Probably more like they know it’s out but

1. It’s gone out of tune slowly and they have adjusted their mindset accordingly.

2. They have no idea of where to go to get their accordion tuned.

3. The estimate of $xxxx and “maybe I can get to it in July” is bad news.

4. Last time I took it to a “professional” it sounded worse than it did going in. (Even this fear will do you in.)

We can’t all live near you or Jim D. or Ike or the other actual pros that post on here because it would get too crowded, although we could have a helluva band!!

 

[dak]

The word "late" suggests it has been a while since you had the accordion tuned.

More than a decade, but it is not that long that the tuner passed.

I am a pretty slow accordion tuner, but precise. With the piccolo reeds especially I tune them every day for three to five days in a row to get them exactly right. (I get them exactly right the first time, but they tend to go out of tune again and again and again until the tuning stabilizes after three to five tries.)

It is mostly tuning down that takes time to stabilize. A professional tuner will tend to err on the side of going down on the first round (and have a good idea of how far up the reed will recover on its own) so that the corrective tuning will mostly be up again. Here "professional" means with a view towards speedy (and thus cost-effective) work. That doesn't imply that the achieved quality is better than an approach from above.

Incidentally, with a violin it is also easier to fine-tune well by coming from below. Not that this is really related.

My experience is that for amateur players (like me) an accordion needs tuning after 4 or 5 years (but spot tuning in between complete tunings every time I hear a note going slightly out of tune). Most accordions I get in for tuning have not been tuned for 15 to 30 years and it is just unbelievable that the players did not realize much sooner that tuning was really needed. Not hearing that an accordion is out of tune is not just a property of amateurs but of some professionals as well.

I'm by now in the situation where I cannot afford a tuning and fix the worst offenders (unclean octaves) with tools not made for accordion. Not good. But if I cannot in good conscience record something (or need to make sure that I play certain notes only on the push or only on the draw), that appears like the lesser evil.

The bass is more affected with its leather valves since a number of them had shrunk over time, causing incomplete closure, and the tuner had not bothered with them. I reglued most of them, but of course that has affected some pitches. The reason I reglued was inconsistent side noise/flutter. The actual air loss was not much of a bother.

 

[debra]

More than a decade, but it is not that long that the tuner passed.

It is mostly tuning down that takes time to stabilize. A professional tuner will tend to err on the side of going down on the first round (and have a good idea of how far up the reed will recover on its own) so that the corrective tuning will mostly be up again. Here "professional" means with a view towards speedy (and thus cost-effective) work. That doesn't imply that the achieved quality is better than an approach from above.
...

Piccolo reeds tend to go up in pitch over time. So almost always the tuning work is tuning them down. However, different types of reeds and reeds from different manufacturers all react in different ways. Which I tend to not err on the low side too much. Another scratch the next day is much less work than tuning the piccolo reed up a bit (with any precision).
When I tune an accordion that includes correcting voicing errors (reeds that are slow to respond and reeds that choke) and replacing valves (leather or plastic) that need it, for instance because they are too short, but sometimes because an inside valve is touching the side or end wall. And sometimes I have to remove a reed plate and rewax it, when it wasn't in the correct position (for instance somewhat diagonal, or too far over to the left or right) and that affects how well it plays. Sometimes I have to make a cutout in the bellows frame because a (low L) reed in cassotto is hitting the bellows frame... People think tuning is just tuning, but when done properly it really isn't. That's also part of the reason why I need way more than one hour for a 41 note 4 voice treble side (without cassotto).

 

[dak]

Sometimes I have to make a cutout in the bellows frame because a (low L) reed in cassotto is hitting the bellows frame...

The Morino Artiste models (at least the D series which is the one I know better) have sort of a hard bellows protector screwed to their behind. One of the 5(?) screws holding it I have filed down at the tip. It's important when disassembling and reassembling to put that particular screw back to where it was, or one of the lowest notes in the L reed will rattle on loud notes (probably on the draw). Astonishing oversight.

 

[LibraryJoe]

Very well said!
However, I would love to have an instrument that looks, feels and sounds like a good quality real accordion but that never goes out of tune!
I was disappointed to experience that Roland did not offer that (it mostly lacked the real accordion sound I wanted) and if Proxima ever becomes a reality and delivers this, count me in! I'm spending too much time on tuning either my own accordions or the accordions of friends I play with!

I totally agree with you. I've owned a Roland 2 and Roland 3, and to me they never sounded like an acoustic accordion. A friend insists this is because I am using inadequate speakers ( the Cube for the 2, and mostly the internal speakers with the 3). For my ears, the Roland does a wonderful job of including accompanying sounds, but as a solo acoustic accordion it's not quite accurate.