Follow up, need advice on 72 bass accordion - Hohner Concerto II

[jensenvideo]

This came up on FB today- purchased new by owner in 1954! Played only occasionally since. He's asking $700 in excellent condition. Wonder if this is a good deal and a quality accordion. It has musette- which I like. Still a beginner and wanting something reasonably light to play a variety of music.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplac...ghtspeed_banner&referralCode=messenger_banner

 

[Snoopz]

Do you have any information at all about maintenance and time of last tune? If it has not been tuned in a long time, it’s probably way off after 70 years, just like my Minerva. The valves will most likely also be toast if not fixed in the last couple of decades, making all notes slow to start. It might still be playable, but far from „concert-ready“.

As an aside: over here in Germany, you can get „excellent condition“ Hohner Atlantic De Luxe (with Artiste reeds) for around the same price…

 

[jensenvideo]

The owner had lessons in the 50's as a boy. It has never been tuned, just taken out from time to time and played.... Is it even worth getting tuned and playable again? Looks to be in mint condition.

 

[PhiliGol]

Hi Jensen
I wouldn't regard it a "good deal".
Even if it's in playable condition (needs no or minimal re-tuning) you should try to push it be low $500,-
If it needs a full re-tuning it's more a $200 ... 250 item (since it really looks mint).

Greeting to CA from Bavaria

 

[jensenvideo]

Thanks so much for your advice

 

[Ventura]

Looks to be in mint condition.

ok wait

you said facebook.. but did you go see it in person ?
because this is the #1 internet problem that "gets" newbies
and innocent shoppers...

there is absolutely no way, no how, nope none that someone
including you can say "Looks to be in mint condition"
unless you actually physically looked at it in person and looked it
over THOROUGHLY

this is the way people get tricked, screwed, mixed up, decieved..

mint like new perfect barely played cannot be pronounced upon
without having your HANDS and EYES directly on the accordion..

false claims and deceptive terms condition people, newbies, and
make it more likely they will be taken advantage of because
the rhetoric sounds normal, real, legitimate, but has no basis in fact

and you too for re-inforcing this (since it really looks mint) said
another expert from seeing one picture

 

[jensenvideo]

ok wait

you said facebook.. but did you go see it in person ?
because this is the #1 internet problem that "gets" newbies
and innocent shoppers...

there is absolutely no way, no how, nope none that someone
including you can say "Looks to be in mint condition"
unless you actually physically looked at it in person and looked it
over THOROUGHLY

this is the way people get tricked, screwed, mixed up, decieved..

mint like new perfect barely played cannot be pronounced upon
without having your HANDS and EYES directly on the accordion..

false claims and deceptive terms condition people, newbies, and
make it more likely they will be taken advantage of because
the rhetoric sounds normal, real, legitimate, but has no basis in fact

and you too for re-inforcing this (since it really looks mint) said
another expert from seeing one picture

Yes, I plan on visiting the owner and inspecting/playing the accordion before making an offer. Thanks for the heads up

 

[vivdunstan]

Beware for any future accordion checking that accordions don't stay in great condition if kept stored for many decades. The wax that attaches the leather reed valves tends to become brittle, and would typically all need to be redone. This is in addition to any retuning necessary. So yes the accordion may look great from the outside, but it's very likely it will have degraded significantly internally.

To give a ballpark figure I arranged to get my 40 year old 72 bass piano accordion retuned for the first time a couple of years ago. I had owned it since new in 1981 but it had never been retuned. It had just 2 registers, and on opening it up the tuner found all the valves needed reattaching as well (though more from very old dried out glue, rather than wax problems). The tuning and other work cost £300 which is nearly $400 converted. I suspect yours could cost an additional $200 at least, given you have a third register to be retuned. So at least $600 to renovate it. It's very possible more problems might be found under the hood, raising the cost even further.

Good luck!

 

[Ventura]

good, you are going to see it..

here are some things to look at

i checked the other pics on the facebook listing,
does look clean and unstained with a lot of shine still..
the bass coverplate looks flat and level.. no warpage that i
can see or looseness.. look at this plate from several angles
and across to spot any weakness

the bellows corners do look like they are still in place and even..
drying out on older accordions is often an issue, they can start to pop up
slightly as they lose purchase on the cardboard.. you can feel
them for looseness by pushing down gently from the middle of the curve

the bass strap is holding the shape of his wrist, indicating it is dried
out and very stiff

the case has one lifted section, which can be a minor accident or an indicator
of how much "dryness" everything has experienced.. if you have a very thin blade
like a grapefruit knife and check along the edge of the material and the case
to feel if the glue holding it in is all dried out and crumbly

if the glue on the case is dried out and loose, also sniff closely
for that mealybug scent (like a box of wheat crackers that
is waaaaay too old and you open it and can smell the gas from those bugs)

if the case material has some bug damage, the felts inside the accordion
likely will also have some damage

without looking inside, you need to use your ear to check the valve leathers..
press notes indivdually to sound them, do several on the pull only
so you can get a feel for the tuning. Pop the same note on off on off
push pull push pull listening for a delayed flap/snap noise (if the leather is
curled and needs a good air pull to get it to close fully)

this is a 2 reed middle reedset accordion.. MM.. you will test the main reed
with either end shift selected. when you climb the scale slowly you
are just using your natural sense of pitch to feel if it climbs "in tune"
with itself. When you add the second reed, (the sharp tuned reedset)
by selecting the middle shift, then you can simply count the pulses
of each musette reedpair, in and out, in and out for each key, and if they
are all relatively similar for the vibrating beat speed then you can smile..
if some are wildly harsh compared to others, especially same note in/out
having a wide difference, you can assume some work will be needed,
and what work exactly cannot be assessed without looking inside

it is a very old accordion and may have sat on the retailers shelf for years
before it was purchased too.. my general cynicism makes me think that
the owner didn't like how it played much, or he would have worn it out
at least a bit more.. it's not like this was a box bought by a parent for
a student who gave it up 3 months later

i personally cannot speak to any pricing

good luck

ps: even if it's not perfect, if the body feels really solid and the
action is tight, these smaller boxes are kind of easy to work on

 

[jensenvideo]

Thanks so much for the walk through on this one Ventura!

 

[dak]

By the way:

It has musette- which I like.

It hasn't. "Musette" is a 3-reed tremolo, and this instrument just has a 2-reed tremolo (because it has just 2 reed sets). Some accordions with named registers call the combination of the tremolo ("Violin") with the piccolo reed ("Piccolo") "Musette" but that's kind of cheating. An instrument I had rather called it "Celesta" which at least is not abusing etablished accordion terminology but "staying in character" within the fantasy names.

At any rate, a 2-reed tremolo without either a third tremolo reed or at least some brightness from the piccolo reed is not even called "Musette" within the scope of fantasy register names.

 

[jensenvideo]

OK, good to know dak.

 

[Ventura]

all this celeste Piccolo confusion..

it's an MM accordion

ok maybe not purist 3 reed musette, but it will sound just fine for La Paloma

whattaya want for a beginner ?
whattaya expect in this price point ?

a million pro's with LMMH gently detuned gave done a billion
gigs playing ethnic music plenty of French and Italian songs
and no-one complained when they used just the 2 middle reeds

 

[jensenvideo]

What I need to be looking for is a minimum of an LMM to get a true musette sound?

 

[Ventura]

no.. you just need to get something decent that will get you
to the next level while you gain experience

eventually you will gain exposure to LMMM LMMH
LMM in many different tunings as you attend club meetings
and hang out at Music stores trying stuff, then you will be
able to have an idea of what you need..

now you are still mostly shooting in the dark, right ?
but you have a few ideas of what you want to play musically..

how far can someone go with just MM ?
a lot of nice ethnic music
play the songs well and you can make an old woman cry

 

[jensenvideo]

no.. you just need to get something decent that will get you
to the next level while you gain experience

eventually you will gain exposure to LMMM LMMH
LMM in many different tunings as you attend club meetings
and hang out at Music stores trying stuff, then you will be
able to have an idea of what you need..

now you are still mostly shooting in the dark, right ?
but you have a few ideas of what you want to play musically..

how far can someone go with just MM ?
a lot of nice ethnic music
play the songs well and you can make an old woman cry

Right now I have a Golden Cup 72 bass PA (I think its MM)? to learn on, functionally fine- but the sound is not great. I really like your idea of attending club meetings/visiting music stores. I hope to visit Smythe's in the Bay Area in the next few weeks.

 

[dak]

What I need to be looking for is a minimum of an LMM to get a true musette sound?

No, LMM (in instruments where it isn't called "Master" because there are also other reeds) is called "Harmonium" or "Accordion" in terms of pseudo register names. For a "true" Musette sound, you need MMM. There are comparatively few smaller instruments with just those reeds, typically French 4-row CBA with 3+3 or 2+3 bass (namely only 3 chord rows) and reed plates on leather gaskets rather than waxed in. They can be brutally loud and are not all that veratile in the music styles they support.

The next size for true Musette sound is LMMM or the much rarer MMMH. In other words: "true" Muesette means either instruments that don't do much else (and typically are C system CBA) or comparatively large instruments.

So a good candidate for a "save it for later" choice.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Colloquially the term "musette" is often used generically to mean any tremolo setting. So a two-voice MM de-tuned for wet tremolo often gets called "musette" in a loose generic sense. AKA a wet switch or a tremolo switch. Sometimes written on the MM switch itself it will be labeled the "Violin" switch. "Violin" means MM. There are 2-voice MM boxes. And there are 2-voice LM boxes that wouldn't have a tremolo or "musette" sound because it's just the low and the middle reed. LM played together is often labeled the "bandoneon" switch or sound.

So-called "true musette" is MMM. That means, one set of middle reeds tuned to proper concert pitch. Another set de-tuned sharp the way MM is. And a third set de-tuned flat. All three sounding together is the sound properly known as "true musette." As I assume you know, units of tremolo are measured in hundredths also known as "cents." In numerals, the "cents" for a two-voice musette of say, 12 cents, might be noted, +12. A three-voice musette might be noted, -12/+12.

There are 3-voice accordions tuned to "true musette." They are MMM boxes. Sometimes they have multiple switches so you can put the single concert-pitch reed, or the MM set, or even the flat MM set. Other times they have no switches and you've got a fixed MMM tuning.

More often as noted upthread, you find "true" MMM available in accordions with more than three treble reed sets. Like an LMMM box, an LMMMH box--there are even more possible if you have a flatbed truck to hold the thing while you play it.

Here are links to three examples. The first is an example of a "true musette" three-voice MMM accordion, tuned very wet. The second is a 4-voice accordion tuned LMMM so there is a "true musette" sound available. The third is a 4-voice tuned LMMH, so you do have a wet tremolo, but it is an MM tremolo, not a "true musette" MMM. Notice that the 4-voice instruments have a slew of register switches. That is for all tons of ways to combine those 4 treble reeds to get different sounds.

 

[jensenvideo]

No, LMM (in instruments where it isn't called "Master" because there are also other reeds) is called "Harmonium" or "Accordion" in terms of pseudo register names. For a "true" Musette sound, you need MMM. There are comparatively few smaller instruments with just those reeds, typically French 4-row CBA with 3+3 or 2+3 bass (namely only 3 chord rows) and reed plates on leather gaskets rather than waxed in. They can be brutally loud and are not all that veratile in the music styles they support.

The next size for true Musette sound is LMMM or the much rarer MMMH. In other words: "true" Muesette means either instruments that don't do much else (and typically are C system CBA) or comparatively large instruments.

So a good candidate for a "save it for later" choice.

Yes, I think much later