Differences between Italian accordions and Russian/Italian bayans

[Volodymyr]

Hi!

I'd like to understand the key differences between

1. Italian button accordion CBA e. g. Bugari 580/ARS/C, Pigini Master 58/B de Luxe
2. Russian bayan e. g. Jupiter
3. Italian button accordion with the word bayan in its name e. g. Bugari Bayan Selecta, Pigini Bayan 58/B de Luxe

I'm specifically interested in the following differences between the above three categories

• Right hand and left hand sound characteristics e. g. a Russian bayan is known for its strong bass
• The most common tuning configuration of reeds for each hand in terms of 16+8+4+2
• What usually the word bayan means for Italian button accordions with the word bayan it its name
• The most common number of chorus in each hand
• Any other important distinguishing characteristics of the above three categories

Thank you!

 

[debra]

Originally the term "bayan" meant nothing other than CBA. Many "smaller" button accordions from the USSR or its former countries are just that: button accordions, but they were all called "bayan" to distinguish them from piano accordions.
An accordion like a Bugari 580/ARS/C is in essence also a bayan. Italian manufacturers reserve the term "bayan" for their high end instruments. Bugari did call the 580/ARS/C "bayan" two or more decades ago and no longer does, to indicate it is not as high end as the instruments they call "bayan". So an essential difference between Italian bayans and non-bayans is the term used as "quality indicator" whereas Russian bayans are just button accordions. Even a small student CBA is called a bayan in Russia.
The key difference between a large Russian bayan (Jupiter, AKKO and others) and a large Italian CBA that is called "bayan" is that the Russian bayan has only large multi-reed plates, mounted on the reed blocks with a leather seal between the reed plates and reed blocks (or sometimes a foam like in bellows gasket tape), whereas the Italian CBA has individual note reed plates, mounted on the reed blocks with wax as glue and seal. The Italians do use some large multi-note reed plates for the lowest notes on the bass side.
The reed plates and the way they are mounted both contribute to the sound difference between Russian and Italian bayans.
The strong bass sound is also partly caused by the Russian bayan using larger (wider and longer) reeds. The bayan bass reeds are made of a stronger steel and are wider and longer than the Italian reeds, so much so that there are no "pre-cut" Italian leather valves long enough to be used for Russian bayan bass reeds. If you need valves for them you have to cut them from a sheet of leather yourself.
The "number of chorus" is the same on Russian and Italian bayans. A bayan typically has a 16-8-8-4 treble configuration.
A typical bayan has the treble keyboard moved forward (away from the player's body). Some Italian manufacturers reserve the use of the term "bayan" to CBA accordions with convertor and with the keyboard moved forward, but not all of them do...
The bass configuration is a bit harder to explain...
1) The lowest 15 notes on a Russian bayan use a 16-8 configuration. The higher notes are 16-16. There are no registers to get just a single 16 foot reed. It's always 16-8 and 16-16.
2) The lowest octave (12 notes) on a Russian bayan has two higher reed banks mounted "on the side" on the main reed block. Italian bayans for the most part have copied this design. Italian accordions (not called bayan) normally have one or two "octave couplers" to make the lowest octave become 4 or 6 voice. These couplers imply that the buttons have to open 2 or 3 times as many pallets and become heavier to press. On a bayan the lowest octave buttons always open just one pallet and thus remain equally heavy no matter whether they are just 16-8 or 16-8-8-4 or 16-8-4-2 using the side-loaded reed banks.
3) On an Italian bayan there is one hole in the bottom of the reed block for each reed (with the exception of the side-loaded reeds). So although the higher notes are 16-16 each reed has a separate hole and it becomes possible to create registers to play just one 16 or both 16-foot reeds. On a Russian bayan the 16-16 reeds (at least partially) share one resonance chamber and one exit-hole. This makes the process of tuning and voicing much harder than on the Italian accordions. The two 16-foot reeds sharing a resonance chamber together sound at a different (lower) frequency than each reed would do separately. If the voicing isn't identical and one reed starts just a tiny bit earlier than the other reed you hear a strange artifact which is the faster reed starting higher and then both reeds play and synchronize down to the lower frequency. It's very hard to eliminate this artifact completely!

 

[debra]

Here is a picture of the inside of my (Russian) bayan, to illustrate a difference that is better seen than described:
The low treble notes on the bayan have larger reeds than an Italian CBA: stronger steel, and as a result smaller added weights on the reeds. Together this results in faster response and stronger sound.
However, the reeds become smaller more quickly than on an Italian CBA. The high notes have reeds that are smaller than on an Italian accordion and they produce a rather sharp and strong sound.
So really the evolution in sound from low to high is quite different between Russian and Italian bayans.
Another thing that is typical is that the Russian bayans have leather valves with mylar booster springs (contrapelli). I don't like this much and have since replaced them by metal booster springs that are more consistent over time. I have also replaced the smaller valves by plastic ones, again because they are more consistent and as a result the tuning is more stable over time.

 

[Volodymyr]

Here is a picture of the inside of my (Russian) bayan, to illustrate a difference that is better seen than described:
The low treble notes on the bayan have larger reeds than an Italian CBA: stronger steel, and as a result smaller added weights on the reeds. Together this results in faster response and stronger sound.
However, the reeds become smaller more quickly than on an Italian CBA. The high notes have reeds that are smaller than on an Italian accordion and they produce a rather sharp and strong sound.
So really the evolution in sound from low to high is quite different between Russian and Italian bayans.
Another thing that is typical is that the Russian bayans have leather valves with mylar booster springs (contrapelli). I don't like this much and have since replaced them by metal booster springs that are more consistent over time. I have also replaced the smaller valves by plastic ones, again because they are more consistent and as a result the tuning is more stable over time.

Thank you very much, @debra, for your extended and very detailed explanation! It is really very useful! I admire the depth of your knowledge!

My understanding of the explained differences suggests that 1) a Russian bayan has stronger reeds that go from larger to smaller more quickly than an Italian bayan which results in sharper differences in sound from low to high, 2) Italian design has a more fine grained reed system that allows for easier and more precise tuning, as well as flexibility in applying registers on the bass, 3) Italian build (wax seal) is more reliable and robust.

It seams that, removing differences in sound characteristics, Italian design is more flexible and Italian build is more reliable. From your perspective, speaking about high end models, is there any other aspect that an Italian bayan whould like to improve in comparison with a Russian bayan? How does technologically (manufacturing process, employed materials, overall quality) an Italian bayan compares to a Russian bayan?

 

[debra]

Thank you very much, @debra, for your extended and very detailed explanation! It is really very useful! I admire the depth of your knowledge!

My understanding of the explained differences suggests that 1) a Russian bayan has stronger reeds that go from larger to smaller more quickly than an Italian bayan which results in sharper differences in sound from low to high, 2) Italian design has a more fine grained reed system that allows for easier and more precise tuning, as well as flexibility in applying registers on the bass, 3) Italian build (wax seal) is more reliable and robust.

It seams that, removing differences in sound characteristics, Italian design is more flexible and Italian build is more reliable. From your perspective, speaking about high end models, is there any other aspect that an Italian bayan whould like to improve in comparison with a Russian bayan? How does technologically (manufacturing process, employed materials, overall quality) an Italian bayan compares to a Russian bayan?

You pretty much summed up the differences quite nicely.
Apart from the aspects already mentioned there is indeed also a "technological" difference. The high-end Italian bayans have more refined keyboard (and bass) mechanics, more refined and easier to the touch. The Russian bayan is a bit more "heavy handed". The differences are not large, but (as an owner of a Russian bayan and some nice Italian button accordions) quite noticeable when playing both of them. But there are also large differences between different Russian instruments and between different Italian instruments. I have worked on a Zonta recently (strictly speaking not Russian as it is from Belarus) and that bayan ranks much lower than an AKKO or Jupiter. The mechanics are not as precise and the reeds are far worse than those I have found in AKKO and Jupiter bayans. I would very much advise against buying from Zonta. The differences between Italian accordions may be a bit less pronounced but the most expensive accordions do have a lighter keyboard action, that is a bit easier to play than the less expensive accordions. And the bass mechanics vary quite a bit too, not just between different brands and models, but also on the year of production. Many Italian manufacturers buy their bass mechanics (parts) from the same suppliers, and the production process and materials vary over time, sometimes for the better, sometimes not.

 

[donn]

The bass configuration is a bit harder to explain...

Oh indeed, I'm going to have to read that a few times, but first a silly question -- "bass" here is its common meaning, the lower pitched notes, right? Not its accordion meaning, referring to the chord mechanism.

 

[debra]

Oh indeed, I'm going to have to read that a few times, but first a silly question -- "bass" here is its common meaning, the lower pitched notes, right? Not its accordion meaning, referring to the chord mechanism.

Bass means the whole left-hand side of the accordion.

 

[tcabot]

Historically, bayan was a 3-row CBA with two voices in dry tuning and no registers. Over the last century the CBA and bayan have pretty much merged.

Afaik, a lot (most?) of high-end bayans come with Italian reeds in RHS these days. Even the modern "Bayan" sound implies an M reed in cassotto and an M reed outside of cassotto, while traditionally you'd have 2 reeds out of cassotto (albeit, different reeds with very different timbre).

2) Italian design has a more fine grained reed system that allows for easier and more precise tuning, as well as flexibility in applying registers on the bass, 3) Italian build (wax seal) is more reliable and robust.

2) What does tuning precision have to do with different reed size/profile? Italians have fewer sizes for bass reeds (I.e. higher proportion of lower frequency reeds is severely undersized). If anything, a more natural reed size for the pitch will, ceteris paribus, give you better pitch stability than oversized weights brazed to sub-optimally profiled reeds.
3) Why? More individual parts, wax seal instead of pressure applied by screws. What's more likely to melt & fall out after a knock - a screw or a piece of melted wax? Have you ever heard of a steel screw drying out and cracking over a 40 year time period? I haven't.

 

[Volodymyr]

Historically, bayan was a 3-row CBA with two voices in dry tuning and no registers. Over the last century the CBA and bayan have pretty much merged.

Afaik, a lot (most?) of high-end bayans come with Italian reeds in RHS these days. Even the modern "Bayan" sound implies an M reed in cassotto and an M reed outside of cassotto, while traditionally you'd have 2 reeds out of cassotto (albeit, different reeds with very different timbre).


2) What does tuning precision have to do with different reed size/profile? Italians have fewer sizes for bass reeds (I.e. higher proportion of lower frequency reeds is severely undersized). If anything, a more natural reed size for the pitch will, ceteris paribus, give you better pitch stability than oversized weights brazed to sub-optimally profiled reeds.
3) Why? More individual parts, wax seal instead of pressure applied by screws. What's more likely to melt & fall out after a knock - a screw or a piece of melted wax? Have you ever heard of a steel screw drying out and cracking over a 40 year time period? I haven't.

My conclusions were based on my perception of the comments in this thread. They do not pretend to be truth, as I'm learning. I'll leave it to more knowledgeable people to draw the final and right conclusions.

 

[saundersbp]

3) Why? More individual parts, wax seal instead of pressure applied by screws. What's more likely to melt & fall out after a knock - a screw or a piece of melted wax? Have you ever heard of a steel screw drying out and cracking over a 40 year time period? I haven't.

My understanding, and it may be quite wrong, but based on recent conversations with the major manufacturers in Italy, is that nailed/screwed in reeds get you a more powerful resonant sound and feature in higher end instruments, but they aren't as stable tuning wise when played hard/loudly. I have no personal evidence either way.

 

[debra]

My understanding, and it may be quite wrong, but based on recent conversations with the major manufacturers in Italy, is that nailed/screwed in reeds get you a more powerful resonant sound and feature in higher end instruments, but they aren't as stable tuning wise when played hard/loudly. I have no personal evidence either way.

Having just tuned a very nice Beltrami with nailed reed plates (but an extra wax seal at the bottom of the reed block) I can attest that their tuning is harder to keep stable. That is because nails (driven in nearly perfectly perpendicular to the surface) do not have a lot of force to stay in. They stay in because of the sideways pressure they apply to the wood that is compressed to make room for the nail. Screws are much better but using screws instead of nails adds to the cost of material and labour of making an accordion. (Especially labour: try to drive 10 small nails into a piece of wood versus 10 screws... you'll see how much longer the screws take.)
When the reed plates are in place and the nails are holding well you do get a nice powerful sound, but the problem is getting the nails to hold well.
High-end Italian accordions that use large reed plates holding a whole octave of bass reeds fix these reed plates with screws. Russian bayans keep the large reed plates in place with screwed-in hooks (and with screws for the piccolo reeds). You get a nice powerful sound and the reed plates are not going anywhere.
So it's just the concept of using nails that is a really bad idea. Every carpenter or builder will tell you: if you want to affix something to wood (without glue) and it needs to be a strong connection, use screws, not nails.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

In addition with the above mentioned, the name Bayan comes after the bard named Boyan from the epic poem:

The tale of Igor's campaign

I think this is wonderful. I like to call all accordion bayans as a common name. It sounds more meaningful and epic to me.

Thanks to Debra, I can properly explain the details of any possible difference, in case somebody asks.

 

[oldbayan]

I had (and still have) a few 3-row accordions made in the former USSR or later (i.e. Horlivka in Ukraine, Tulsa in Russia) including a big Saturn, and none had long reed plates! Just individual plates mounted with nails and wax. One shared feature is the placement of pallets on both sides of the treble keyboard due to its position somewhere in the middle of the treble body. 100-bass is a common feature on those.

 

[debra]

I had (and still have) a few 3-row accordions made in the former USSR or later (i.e. Horlivka in Ukraine, Tulsa in Russia) including a big Saturn, and none had long reed plates! Just individual plates mounted with nails and wax. One shared feature is the placement of pallets on both sides of the treble keyboard due to its position somewhere in the middle of the treble body. 100-bass is a common feature on those.

These old 3 row accordions are instruments that we would simply call a button accordion. But in the USSR the terminology was simply different: accordion meant piano-accordion and bayan meant button-accordion. Using the term bayan only for "higher-end" button accordions is a habit that was created in Italy.

 

[dak]

Having just tuned a very nice Beltrami with nailed reed plates (but an extra wax seal at the bottom of the reed block) I can attest that their tuning is harder to keep stable. That is because nails (driven in nearly perfectly perpendicular to the surface) do not have a lot of force to stay in. They stay in because of the sideways pressure they apply to the wood that is compressed to make room for the nail.

Nails suitable for reed plates aren't smooth but have circular ridges that catch on the compressed wood similar to what screw spirals do. Screws are larger and do a better job of working multiple times in the same hole.

Screws are much better but using screws instead of nails adds to the cost of material and labour of making an accordion. (Especially labour: try to drive 10 small nails into a piece of wood versus 10 screws... you'll see how much longer the screws take.)

Screws might require predrilling the wood in order not to cause splits.

When the reed plates are in place and the nails are holding well you do get a nice powerful sound, but the problem is getting the nails to hold well.
High-end Italian accordions that use large reed plates holding a whole octave of bass reeds fix these reed plates with screws. Russian bayans keep the large reed plates in place with screwed-in hooks (and with screws for the piccolo reeds). You get a nice powerful sound and the reed plates are not going anywhere.
So it's just the concept of using nails that is a really bad idea. Every carpenter or builder will tell you: if you want to affix something to wood (without glue) and it needs to be a strong connection, use screws, not nails.

Sure. It's just a size problem. The treble reed plates don't have a lot of size to place screws. The small nails hold better in dense wood, so you should use reed blocks suitable for this technique. It's pretty common for French instruments, probably for sound reasons (real or imaginary). It's also used in Texmex diatonics for heat resilience reasons as far as I know.

 

[debra]

Nails suitable for reed plates aren't smooth but have circular ridges that catch on the compressed wood similar to what screw spirals do. Screws are larger and do a better job of working multiple times in the same hole.
...

These nails (I have seen them being used) are more expensive than plain nails, and as accordion makers try to make money (as much money as possible) they are not often used.

 

[dak]

These nails (I have seen them being used) are more expensive than plain nails, and as accordion makers try to make money (as much money as possible) they are not often used.

Compared to the price of the reed plates, particularly those which are mounted on leather for sound reasons, that seems like an imprudent place to be saving money. Almost makes me suspect that it's the consequence of someone "saving money" by not knowing what they are doing.

 

[Dingo40]

Screws might require predrilling the wood in order not to cause splits.

The same problem arises with nails, especially with brittle timber: it's always best to drill appropriate pilot holes!
See here:

splitting of timber by nailing - Google Search

 

[debra]

Compared to the price of the reed plates, particularly those which are mounted on leather for sound reasons, that seems like an imprudent place to be saving money. Almost makes me suspect that it's the consequence of someone "saving money" by not knowing what they are doing.

Unwise decisions are made in small corners (like with the nails) as well as with bigger issues like e.g. using leathers with plastic boosters for the low notes in a cassotto or using the wrong (cheaper) wood for reed blocks so they warp, and even with truly major issues like moving entire factories to China to save on production costs...