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chromatic accordions

lolaweb

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hello
I'm considering a chromatic. Can anybody provide a diagram of keyboards for C and B systems and benefits of either ? thanks
 
I had a lot of fun looking for those diagrams on the web. Give me real sense of accomplishment. On the way I learned a lot about chromatic button accordions.
 
There has been a lot of discussion on this topic, as to which is better, C or B system. The general conclusion is that neither is objectively better, but accordionists who play them do have a personal preference. There are regional preferences, which may affect the resources you can find in your area (instruments for sale, teachers, etc.) Generally speaking, C is more popular in Western Europe, and B more popular in Eastern Europe. Here is one recent discussion:

 
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(Bold added in various places to provide a sort of TL;DR "main points" index). There's been a lot of discussion of the differences, and honestly some of the ones I see thrown around are just flat-out false. A common one is that people say that you can't really slur a minor triad into a major in C-griff (and can't go the reverse direction in B-griff), and... neither are true. I generally find it extremely simple to slur a grace-note minor into a major on my C-griff. The diff is that on C-griff you need a spare finger to be available for a minor-to-major slur (not an actual problem in most of the situations I've been in), but can just slide a single finger downward for major-to-minor, and in B-griff it's reversed.

To me, personally (caveat: I have far more experience with C system than with B (which I've only tooled around a bit with)), there is little technical difference to prefer one system over the other (even if you're playing blues and need to grace-note-slur minor and major chords frequently), but I wish I'd been told at the outset that the construction of the accordion, in particular the reed sets available on the instrument, will skew one way or the other depending on which griff you have. In illustration, if you walk into Petosa in the Seattle, WA area and they have new Americana- or Petosa-brand CBAs with four reedsets, the B-griff instruments will be LMMH (and probably dry-tuned), and the C-griff instruments will be LMMM (with one of the M's being decidedly "wet"). But I did not realize this until I was already well on my journey to learning CBA (and accordions in general), and the only real distinguishing factor I had been sold on was that C-griff is gentler on those familiar with piano keyboards, by virtue of the fact that finger movement will somewhat more closely resemble what's used on a piano keyboard (to some degree).

The C system tends to be favored for western European traditions, and so a C-griff accordion is more likely to have two or more mids, and one of those mid-range reed sets will be wet/musette-tuned in order to attain that iconic "musette" sound. If you expect to be playing a lot of Irish, Spanish, Italian, or French folk classics, you may want to learn C system to make more of those sorts of systems available to you. On the other hand, if you wish to play Baroque music (Bach, Scarlatti), and certainly if you're looking for a more eastern Europe sound, you should consider using a B-griff instrument, as bayans, and more generally B-griff accordions, are a bit more likely on the mid-range instruments to have the "high" reed sets (LMH or LMMH vs LMM or LMMM). I'm also not positive, but I have an impression that bayans (which are more commonly available in B griff) are more likely than average to have free bass or converter options.

If I'd known this from the beginning, I'd almost certainly have started my journey on B griff, since I'm very much interested in playing traditional classical (conservatory) music and have been from the beginning, coming from a background in (mainly) classical piano music. Since I have (among other instruments) a Roland V-accordion (the compact FR-1xb), I was able to experiment with B griff (by putting the instrument into that mode), to see if there were any obvious technical advantages to playing that griff over the C - to see if there was a difference great enough that, coupled with my belated understanding that the different systems are associated with different sounds, might convince me to switch systems (I was only 7 or 8 months into playing, but had already made a lot of progress and would have had to reset my knowledge almost completely, aside from Stradella). But I didn't really find grounds to do so (I do think the chromatic scale is a hair more fluid to play in B system, owing to the use of the middle three fingers, rather than 1-2-3 in C system). I also found that, while the sounds definitely skew a particular way, you certainly will find LMMH (and the occasional converter option) for C system instruments, and presumably you can find wet-tuned B griffs (I haven't really looked). It mostly matters because CBAs in general are much harder to find in the USA than PAs, so even a mild skew matters - you're going to be limiting your ability to obtain certain sounds among an already-limited set of instruments.
 
If it's any relief to your belated feelings of wistfulness, I'm not sure your conclusions or assumptions about availability of reed-set configurations and availability of freebass are borne out in reality.

The one exception might be traditional Russian Bayan engineering that gives Bayan basses that huge growl. But aside from that, I think free-bass as well as "H" reed configurations are quite available for C system.
 
The one exception might be traditional Russian Bayan engineering that gives Bayan basses that huge growl. But aside from that, I think free-bass as well as "H" reed configurations are quite available for C system.

Oh, absolutely, and that's why I speak of a "skew" rather than, idk, a "dearth". Also why I felt comfortable not switching to B-griff: I'm fairly confident I'll eventually find a quality instrument of that description pop up at, say, Liberty Bellows (well and I've already seen some pass through there). If "H" reeds and free-bass converters were nearly unheard of for the C system, I absolutely would switch to B.

But there does seem to be at least some skew, and it's at least explicitly the case for new instruments made by Petosa at any rate... and given the differences between western vs eastern European traditions, makes sense to me. And particularly here in the PNW, CBAs seem troublesome to obtain, and if the skew I describe is in fact real, it means I'm much more likely to have to fly to the midwest or the east coast to get the right instrument (or special-order it from Petosa and be prepared to wait a couple years). Might even consider flying to Europe (east, west, probably doesn't matter, I think the selection over all is probably much better in "the right places" there than it is anywhere here?) to find what I want.
 
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To me, personally (caveat: I have far more experience with C system than with B (which I've only tooled around a bit with)), there is little technical difference to prefer one system over the other (even if you're playing blues and need to grace-note-slur minor and major chords frequently), but I wish I'd been told at the outset that the construction of the accordion, in particular the reed sets available on the instrument, will skew one way or the other depending on which griff you have. In illustration, if you walk into Petosa in the Seattle, WA area and they have new Americana- or Petosa-brand CBAs with four reedsets, the B-griff instruments will be LMMH (and probably dry-tuned), and the C-griff instruments will be LMMM (with one of the M's being decidedly "wet"). But I did not realize this until I was already well on my journey to learning CBA (and accordions in general), and the only real distinguishing factor I had been sold on was that C-griff is gentler on those familiar with piano keyboards, by virtue of the fact that finger movement will somewhat more closely resemble what's used on a piano keyboard (to some degree).
...
Every CBA (chromatic button accordion) model that I have encountered can be bought with the same reed configuration and tuning, regardless of whether you want C-griff, B-griff or other oddball systems (like Do2 or Finnish system). I have a few button accordions at home, all C-griff, and three are LMMH and one is LMMMH. Anything you want in B griff you can also get in C griff and vice versa. That of course doesn't mean that when you look into used accordions you will find everything in equal numbers. I even have a Russian bayan in C-griff, LMMH with tremolo. When you look for a used Russian bayan you will most likely only find B-griff LMMH and dry tuned. But when you order a new one, everything is possible.
 
And B system was widely used in Belgium and the Netherlands plus enjoyed reasonable popularity in Germany (afaik), so "classic" models from 50s-70s come in exactly the same specs as C griff.

I wanted to play B griff due to my interest in eastern european music, and I had a hope that B griff will be cheaper, as it's less popular in Europe than C. However, the shorter demand is met by shorter supply, and I'd say, on average, the market equalizes itself, so you don't necessarily get a bargain just because you picked one system over the other.

Another consideration is a PA, as they are a lot more popular and easier to get in the UK.

In regard to converters, B system does have a large supply of cheap & nasty 3-row student-level jobbies from 1960s-80s' USSR but I wouldn't want to play one of those, so don't let that affect your judgement.
 
Iolaweb
At the risk of spoon-feeding, Wikipedia will answer your layout question.
As to benefits, you will have noticed that there are a number of different opinions.
You may want to look at availability of instruments and learning materials?
Enjoy the ride!
 
And B system was widely used in Belgium and the Netherlands plus enjoyed reasonable popularity in Germany (afaik), so "classic" models from 50s-70s come in exactly the same specs as C griff.
...
In the western part of Belgium C griff is very popular and in the eastern part B griff is more popular. There are also still a lot of people in Belgium who play "Do2" and there is also a lot of Belgian Bass used.
Near the end of the seventies the accordion slowly changes status from strictly forbidden in music schools to accepted. The first teacher at the conservatory was Hubert Kicken. After something like two years Roger Eggermont became his successor. He tried to convince the ministry that all systems except B griff should be banned. That idea didn't fly, but PA was banned and CBA with B griff and C griff is now all that is allowed. (Music schools do stll accept adult students who already play PA for many years, but all newbies are required to play CBA.)
 
In the western part of Belgium C griff is very popular and in the eastern part B griff is more popular. There are also still a lot of people in Belgium who play "Do2" and there is also a lot of Belgian Bass used.
Near the end of the seventies the accordion slowly changes status from strictly forbidden in music schools to accepted. The first teacher at the conservatory was Hubert Kicken. After something like two years Roger Eggermont became his successor. He tried to convince the ministry that all systems except B griff should be banned. That idea didn't fly, but PA was banned and CBA with B griff and C griff is now all that is allowed. (Music schools do stll accept adult students who already play PA for many years, but all newbies are required to play CBA.)
That is… interesting. With regard to the potential for development, that seems sort of reasonable, but for a ministry to be dictating such choices seems wild to me. On the other hand, I haven't really understood the authority that the Institut Français is given to wield, and I am saying that as one who is constantly annoyed at "rustic" blackletter signs confusing ſ and s in Germany.
 
all i remember about German Road signs is that
all roads somehow lead to the lovely town of Ausfahrt
Personally I have been enamored with the insistence Italians add "A fine tunnel" to the collection of signs before a road tunnel. They seem to be very proud of their rock drilling capabilities.
 
That is… interesting. With regard to the potential for development, that seems sort of reasonable, but for a ministry to be dictating such choices seems wild to me. On the other hand, I haven't really understood the authority that the Institut Français is given to wield, and I am saying that as one who is constantly annoyed at "rustic" blackletter signs confusing ſ and s in Germany.
In Belgium music education is subsidized just like other education. And as the (Flemish) government pays for that education that government also makes the rules. It is of course perfectly fine to play PA, just don't expect to be able to go to music school and later the conservatory to learn it. There is a list of things you can study in the official schools... Some things you can learn by other means but you cannot get an official degree. One of the things you cannot get a degree in is piano accordion and another thing is accordion repair.
 
In illustration, if you walk into Petosa in the Seattle, WA area and they have new Americana- or Petosa-brand CBAs with four reedsets, the B-griff instruments will be LMMH (and probably dry-tuned), and the C-griff instruments will be LMMM (with one of the M's being decidedly "wet").

As the other replies have said, if you order a new instrument, these are two independent choices, and Petosa (or anybody else) will happily build any of the four combinations.

IMO what you are seeing is an artifact of the local market: in general, more people play C system than B system in the USA, and the musette tuning is in fashion in the USA. But there are expats pushing the Russian bayan tradition they grew up with, at least one each in Oregon, Washington, and BC, and those performers and their students will be asking for dry-tuned LMMH B-system.
 
all i remember about German Road signs is that
all roads somehow lead to the lovely town of Ausfahrt
To be contrasted with the awful city Wenden in the Sauerland region. It's so bad that navigation systems often have an explicit "Wenden vermeiden" option.
 
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