• If you haven't done so already, please add a location to your profile. This helps when people are trying to assist you, suggest resources, etc. Thanks
  • We're having a little contest, running until 15th May. Please feel free to enter - see the thread in the "I Did That" section of the forum. Don't be shy, have a go!

Are chromatic button accordions faster than piano accordions?

(sigh) so it's come to this... "how hard you throw them". Really? I despair.

Surely technique counts for something...

If the straps are in good condition a "hammer turn" throwing technique would be excellent...

Or perhaps some kind of accordion trebuchet. :unsure:
And THIS is where the smaller diatonic box really shines. It's easily possible to throw them overhand, with good form, and high velocity. Sure, the big PAs and CBAs hit hard, when they hit at all...
 
Thanks for writing! This is exactly my thinking, including being skittish about diatonics.
I read a 2021 post of yours about switching.
I guess that after 3 years of CBA, you haven't changed your mind about any of this?
I see you have a Roland FR-1xb. What do you think about using the FR-1xb as a first, trial CBA? Is the action fast? I may get into bad bellows habits, but I imagine can break them. I like being able to mute or use headphones for all the exercises I expect to need to play over and over.
That is exactly the path I went. Quietly learning the fingering on the Roland gave me the assurance I could make the switch and I haven’t regretted anything. It was plenty responsive in the keys but It didn’t feel like a real instrument to me (I never used it in a session). The few times I played with other acoustic players in public I found the internal speakers too weak, but I loved the C-griff system and quickly located my first acoustic CBA (and soon after traded my PA FR4x for the FR4-bx).
 
Last edited:
And THIS is where the smaller diatonic box really shines. It's easily possible to throw them overhand, with good form, and high velocity. Sure, the big PAs and CBAs hit hard, when they hit at all...

If we get serious about accordions, and not just type random jokes about throwing them, then one can see several areas for accordion development.
1) Walker has already mentioned the technique - I agree it is vital for a good result, and if double straps are allowed, then a "hammer turn" must be one of the best ways to draw inspiration from, regardless of whether it's a PA, CBA or diatonic.
2) It's not just about weight, it is about the ballistic coefficient, which is calculated as:
BC=mass/(drag*cross-sectional area)
You will get better results if the squeezebox flies in a straighter line, and the mass per cross sectional area is maximised. Big yes to double-cassotto boxes and slick aerodynamic curved grilles like a Hohner Morino. Big no to the square Steirische boxes with random stuff sticking out of the casework, generating more drag. Concertinas are too light to go far, and bandoneons are probably the worst, as they are square and have a very large cross-section to weight ratio.

In case we are not going just for distance, or distance & accuracy (like golf for instance), there has to be some weight in the box, otherwise it will get blown off course by sidewind, or, with a very strong headwind it might actually boomerang back into its owner's face.
 
Ok, I know, WHO'S PLAYING IT? :rolleyes:

I play PA and would like to be fast enough to sometimes play melody for contra dances, which on some tunes go as fast as 240 notes per minute (120 metronome). I'm quite sure I'll never be nearly that fast on PA, at least not while playing crisply and accurately.

I play PA in a Morris band - most of our tunes have quaver runs at 160bpm - so 320 notes per minute. It's beyond my ability to sight read [at that speed], but I can do it with practice and building muscle memory.

That said, I have arranged hire of a CBA for later in the year, but my motivation is reduced right-hand movement, and aesthetics - not for speed.
 
Last edited:
I play PA in a Morris band - most of our tunes have quaver runs at 160bpm - so 320 notes per minute. It's beyond my ability to sight read, but I can do it with practice and building muscle memory.

That said, I have arranged hire of a CBA for later in the year, but my motivation is reduced right-hand movement, and aesthetics - not for speed.
Funnily there was a time when "æsthetics" were a reason to camouflage button accordions as piano accordions.
 
Intriguing. Presumably the black keys are fake?
Pretty sure. There are also variants where the black keys are register switches.
I suppose another reason to try CBA is it is not straightforward like the R/H side of a PA but is mysterious and requires arcane knowledge!
That's a bandonion. A CBA is perfectly regular, like a 16-string guitar with 4 frets and tuned in minor thirds. But the audience likely doesn't know that.
 
Whether you can play them equally fast depends on what it is you are trying to play. Playing chromatic scales can often go faster on CBA because they are much easier. But a very fast C scale can be done as a glissando on PA and must be played note by note on CBA, so here the PA is faster...
I am curious. How are glissando supposed to work on a B system layout?


For what I see, you will get the most natural keys by just using the first row, and you will get the most naturals.
 
Adding to the topic, I don't think playing that fast has any advantages at all other than to show up.

My accordion mentor told me to be moderated in speed, and that it is not worth it wasting away my fingers like that. I also heard of some accordionists from Ireland that they lost their sense of touch in their fingers, after years of playing too fast.
 
Last edited:
Pretty sure. There are also variants where the black keys are register switches.

That's a bandonion. A CBA is perfectly regular, like a 16-string guitar with 4 frets and tuned in minor thirds. But the audience likely doesn't know that.

Sorry, yes I was thinking from the point of view of the audience. There is a common opinion that if I play piano I must find piano accordion easy!

This search for mystery is perhaps why I play viola... my teacher (a folk fiddler) started one lesson with "last week you sent me music in the alto clef. Frankly, it scared me" ha ha! :devilish:
 
Last edited:
That squares with my experience and I chalk it up to the massive inertia of multiple generations of tradition within the form. Fortunately, it has yet to be an issue—either people don’t know the difference and/or I’m producing what they are expecting to hear from a small wooden box thing. I’ve had multiple veteran players gush about how good (and authentic) it sounds. This shows that it is possible, but there are no guides so you have to rely on your own efforts to adapt your playing technique and sound to make it fit within the tradition (just like the successful PA players have done).
The tradition thing is really weird for me. I was contra dancing in the 70's, and here in New Hampshire piano accordions were the exception - it was almost all concertinas and melodeons. I don't recall ever seeing Dudley play PA, and almost everyone else around here learned contra music directly or indirectly from him. There are more PA's now, but calling them "traditional" would be just wrong here. I guess that's part of the appeal of CBA for me - as you've said, the articulation, especially for smaller CBA's, seems closer to those little diatonic button boxes, in my strictly-youtube experience.
 
Adding to the topic, I don't think playing that fast has any advantages at all other than to show up.

My accordion mentor told me to be moderated in speed, and that it is not worth it wasting away my fingers like that. I also heard of some accordionists from Ireland that they lost their sense of touch in their fingers, after years of playing too fast.
Playing very fast has the advantage that you don't hear how much the accordion is out of tune.
 
Adding to the topic, I don't think playing that fast has any advantages at all other than to show up.

My accordion mentor told me to be moderated in speed, and that it is not worth it wasting away my fingers like that. I also heard of some accordionists from Ireland that they lost their sense of touch in their fingers, after years of playing too fast.
For contra dance music, you try to play at the tempo the dancers will get the most joy from dancing to. That varies with the dancers, the dance, and the music. Obviously, fast dances (steps per minute) and tunes with more notes per step are more challenging. Dance speeds are varied within a set to give everyone a chance to catch their breath. For an example of a fast tempo contra tune, listen to the fiddle on the first tune, Star of Munster, of this:
 
Last edited:
The tradition thing is really weird for me. I was contra dancing in the 70's, and here in New Hampshire piano accordions were the exception - it was almost all concertinas and melodeons. I don't recall ever seeing Dudley play PA, and almost everyone else around here learned contra music directly or indirectly from him.
If you were contra dancing in the 70's, then you are obviously an old-timer (like me). Dudley goes way back (he is 90+) and is still doing contra dances. He most definitely played PA at one time. Here he is in the 1960s playing the PA and calling a contra dance at the same time. The young woman playing PA in the band is Sylvia Miskole, who, like Dudley, is still active.

 
Last edited:
If you were contra dancing in the 70's, then you are obviously an old-timer (like me). Dudley goes way back (he is 90+) and is still doing contra dances. He most definitely played PA at one time. Here he is in the 1960s playing the PA and calling a contra dance at the same time. The young woman playing PA in the band is Sylvia Miskole, who, like Dudley, is still active.
I play with Sylvia every month. She's the one PA player (that I knew was one) I can remember playing at NH dances back then. Here's another video of Dudley with a PA, from 2010. My memory is obviously just of the collection of dances I went to, and less than perfect!
 
Adding to the topic, I don't think playing that fast has any advantages at all other than to show up.

My accordion mentor told me to be moderated in speed, and that it is not worth it wasting away my fingers like that.

It depends on the situation. I don't have the option to play more slowly as our dancers need to go at a certain speed to give the right amount of momentum. I can simplify the tune, or I can play just bass notes for a while, or I can switch to another instrument. But I can't play more slowly :(
 
The "YDW 2018" contra video that Ed S linked to above is running at about 120bpm. Pretty standard reel speed for this type of music for dancing and that would include Scottish and Irish as well.
And of course 120bpm is the speed Ed mentioned in his opening post.
 
I play with Sylvia every month.
Well, this is some background we have not had until now. Are you taking lessons, or just sitting in with a band? What does Sylvia have to say about switching to a different accordion system to improve your playing?

Trying to again answer your original question. A CBA keyboard may be theoretically faster than a PA, but if you are already far along on a PA, it will probably take years to reach your current level. But who knows, some have switched to CBA and taken to it like a duck to water. A lot depends on how quickly you adapt to the logic of a uniform keyboard, not based on the key of C like a piano.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top