Brand New Accordion with strange problems.

[donn]

I'm not a lawyer, and I suppose the legal aspect of this may be more or less irrelevant, since the seller and buyer are in different countries, but this looks to me to fail the warranty implied under common law of fitness for a particular purpose. Describing it as a "limitation of the box" simply confirms this - the box doesn't serve its intended purpose, whether the seller wishes to describe it as a "fault" or not.

It would be interesting to learn from the manufacturer which accordions suffer from this limitation, something the accordion buying public should know I think.

 

[Glenn]

If in this case it is a "limitation of the box" according to the manufacturer then it is a part of the design.
If this is true, all accordions from this "top make" will have the same effect.
If not present in all boxes from this "top make" then it is not a limitation of the box but a limitation of this box.
Has the manufacturer agreed to replace the accordion?

 

[James]

"If not present in all boxes from this "top make" then it is not a limitation of the box but a limitation of this box."

Agree.

James

 

[JerryPH]

Has the manufacturer agreed to replace the accordion?

No, to date, theyve been sent a reed block, IMHO a comical move in a lame attempt to not really even try to address the issue.

 

[debra]

Has the manufacturer agreed to replace the accordion?

No, to date, theyve been sent a reed block, IMHO a comical move in a lame attempt to not really even try to address the issue.[/quote]
Well... if the problem exists in every accordion of the same type then a reed block is all they need because they can put it in another (identical) accordion and should then be able to reproduce the problem.
But of course if it is that simple then they should be able to remedy the problem in all instruments of that model they produce.
Alas, manufacturing is a rush job nowadays. Large factories like Bugari and Pigini produce many thousands of instruments per year, under many different brand names. They large companies have bought the rights to produce under the name of what were once smaller family-run businesses and even large companies that went out of business. It is profitable because many people still think the instruments are genuine (from the original owner of the name). I know many people who play a Hohner Morino from the N or S series and they had no idea their instrument was (mostly or completely) made by Excelsior. And people do see that the newest Morinos are different but dont know it is because Pigini took over Excelsior and now produces the higher-end Hohner accordions. Likewise there are people who do not realize Bugari and Zero Sette is just one factory (and who knows how many other names they produce). I also know people who have a Guilietti and dont know this is just a brand that had others make the instruments for them...
I hope the OP has taken pictures of the reed block before shipping it and will take pictures again of the fixed block when it returns, so we can see what was done and hear whether the problem was indeed solved.

 

[JerryPH]

Only time will tell if they address the issue or not and I sincerely hope they do treat her well.

Unfortunately, I see good people being treated badly far more often than I would want. Just in the last 3 days, I have seen at least 10 situations (3 car sales, 4 construction situations, 3 items ordered from abroad) that there are issues with the "product" received. The only one that I see where satisfaction is being met is by a gal who returned her brand new 2 week old car that has been in the garage for 11 out of the last 14 days that she paid for it, she won't accept a new product that doesn't work. She will not wait while she has to use buses and taxis and her car sits in the garage.

She has now returned it and moved on to another make/brand. She has found satisfaction with a dealership that displays a level of care that is higher than the first one.

I see more and more companies try to take advantage of the innocent, because they let themselves be led to believe that the company cares, but in truth, they cannot quite be bothered to address their issues. I hope I am wrong, but all the signs are there already. Ocktoberfestgirl should have immediately returned that accordion and replaced it with the same make/model but with one without the issues. She should not be made to wait one second... much less months to repair a NEW instrument.

 

[donn]

I hope the OP has taken pictures of the reed block before shipping it and will take pictures again of the fixed block when it returns, so we can see what was done and hear whether the problem was indeed solved.

I should probably leave this to her, but ...

They have offered to replace the lowest bass reeds with different ones
...so we have agreed and shipped the reed block overseas. They have promised to ship a replacement one back.

The way I read it, the pictures would just show you two different reed blocks, so it would be very hard to pick out the specific difference that fixes the problem. (If it, hopefully, fixes the problem.)

Maybe they just dont want to admit they dont know what the problem is, and dont want to say that its likely a defect, so they tell this limitation story without considering how poorly it reflects on them. They probably dont have first class corporate training for their customer service, just a relative working half time in the back office.

 

[OktoberfestGirl]

Maybe they just dont want to admit they dont know what the problem is, and dont want to say that its likely a defect, so they tell this limitation story without considering how poorly it reflects on them. They probably dont have first class corporate training for their customer service, just a relative working half time in the back office.

I think unfortunately Donns comment might be spot on. The new reed block which arrived one day before Christmas has different bass reeds which are less powerful but still have the same pitch range, lowest sounding reed is a G. The flutter problem is still there but has reduced a little. I still believe the accordion sounds faulty but am now in a position where I could be seen as being fussy. :shock: My problem is all my other accordions are from the 1960s and only go down to a low C in the bass reeds as lowest note. I cant detect any annoying flutter on the old accordions at all, at worst a very very mild vibrato when the bass kicks in...but not unpleasant at all. To help me I would be super appreciative if anyone who has an accordion which has basses down below C could record how their accordion sounds when they hold down their lowest bass reed and play a slow scale and chord in the treble? The problem with my new accordion is most noticeable when playing the G reed bass and with a Musette register setting playing a G chord on the treble. But, really it is noticeable up to and including the C as well. So any bass including G,A,B,C shows the very obvious flutter/stutter. If you could post a recording of your accordion and indicate the make, model, and age this might help me prove to them that my accordion does indeed sound sick compared to others, and its not normal. I am particularly interested in hearing a Bugari, Beltuna, Scandalli, Pigini, or similar top end brands but any info is appreciated. My accordion has Cassotto and the problem is worse on the reeds outside the a cassotto. Thank you in advance for any help and wishing you all a very Happy New Year! :ch

 

[debra]

...
I think unfortunately Donns comment might be spot on. The new reed block which arrived one day before Christmas has different bass reeds which are less powerful but still have the same pitch range, lowest sounding reed is a G. The flutter problem is still there but has reduced a little. ...

They cannot easily change what the lowest sounding reed is because that would require different reed combinations on the base notes to hide the octave jump. Having the G as lowest sounding reed is not very common. It seems that many Bugari accordions without convertor have A as lowest note. Convertor instruments will have the lowest note from the melody bass as lowest note, typically an E. I have seen accordions (without convertor) from other brands where the lowest note is C.
Now, if your accordion is a top accordion and is not Bugari, Beltuna, Scandalli, Pigini and cannot be Borsini or Ballone Burini (as these two are defunct) or Hohner (as that is just Pigini) and it is a famous brand what other options are there... Victoria comes to mind... and they have had some issues in the past like producing a 5-reed top instrument without cassotto only to find that the keyboard side was seriously lacking in sound volume, so they could have other issues as well? There are many other companies, typically smaller, all doing their best to produce fully functional flawless instruments, but sometimes a design may simply fail...
Would it not be easiest to just say what instrument you have and ask others with the same brand and model to check their instrument rather than asking everyone else who does not have a similar instrument to just try something?
As for the recordings it is hard to make a really good recording + mp3 encoding that does a musette register justice, let alone then show the problem with the vibration caused by the base notes. Recording accordions is not too hard as long as no tremolo is used, but microphones as well as mp3 encoders tend to mess up with tremolo at least to some extent, so one has to judge carefully whether a recording reflects how the instruments sounds in the flesh.

 

[donn]

The phenomenon in question seems to be well within the domain of casual recording, given the example at the top of page 2. I am not personally real sure it's going to help a lot, though. At this point in the game, the only way forward is to return the accordion for the purchase price, right? Or possibly in exchange for another model with normal bass range. The manufacturer has fairly convincingly demonstrated that there is no solution forthcoming for the problem with their extended low bass reeds. Documentation of the existence of superior accordions might help this case, but anyone can listen to the sound of that first clip and understand that it would not be acceptable. Of course that's irrelevant now, the same recording would have to be done with the new bass reeds, but assuming it's still reasonably conspicuous, it should be sufficient. If it isn't so conspicuous, then you have the recording technology problem described above. Anyway, much depends on how far the manufacturer is disposed to go, to make it right.

I listened again to the clip on page 2, and was again struck by how awful the treble sounded. I said something about that at the time - the bass chatter strikes me as a match to the beat frequency between the musette tuned reeds. But aside from the bass chatter problem, is that musette tuning good for something? I have a fairly high tolerance for musette tuning, and old used French accordions with some tuning issues, but the sound in that clip would drive me to the nearest accordion tuner. And here it is, pretty clearly involved in this bass problem. Wouldn't it be great to find out that tuning up the treble to a less rowdy musette actually fixes the bass problem, even with the more powerful original bass reeds?

 

[donn]

Also might suggest, that if we're compiling audio examples of successful low bass reeds ... along with the bass range extended below C, might consider requiring a two-voice musette. Not three. I was just poking around with my old Fratelli Crosio to see if I could make out what's the lowest bass reed, and when I heard that lush three reed musette it occurred to me you'd never have this problem. The pattern of beat frequencies is much more complex, and hence attenuated, with reeds tuned at three different pitches.

 

[OktoberfestGirl]

Hi, thanks again for your replies. I attached two recordings of the accordion with the new reed block. One is a scale, the other is a snippet of a song.

Donn, I think you are right in that a wet musette would mask the problem.

Sorry to be frustrating to you, Paul DeBra, I know you are really keen for me to disclose the manufacturer however for a variety of reasons not relevant to the forum I am not going to.

At the moment I am in a position where there is an offer to build a replacement accordion of the same model and swap it over; or to return the one I have for a money refund to the dealer.

There are many things I LOVE VERY MUCH about the accordion. Its my dream accordion in almost every way and a brand I have always loved when Ive seen others play in concerts or on youtube. I have never noticed the flutter in this brand before.

If I could get another one built with a guarantee the flutter would be gone, then I would be absolutely thrilled. However the lack of admitting there is actually a fault makes the replacement offer nonsensical as I would be buying the exact same accordion again - presumably then with the same sound characteristics.

If I decline the offer to swap it over then I am in a situation where I need to buy another accordion brand through a local dealer but again ordered from the factory overseas. If this low bass flutter is indeed considered the new normal then I am unsure which brand of accordion I should buy instead. Many brands are steeped in history of quality but are operating under new ownership, I have been told its not how it used to be with regards to quality and workmanship.

I cant try any new accordions in my town or in any nearby city to test which ones meet my preferences, as no shop in driving distance even stocks new accordion models.

I am mulling this over too much... I think I will go and pour myself a glass of leftover wine from New Years Eve to drown my sorrows and leave you guys to listen to this and tell me what you think.

 

[donn]

If I didn't have the earlier recording for reference, I would chalk this up to fundamental limitations of low bass reeds and recording technology, both. The earlier recording's prominent beat frequency from the treble reeds is missing in the new recordings, and that beat frequency seemed to be connected to the problem.

I will say, it sounds like you're fortunate in your choice of dealers. It seems pretty likely that this make isn't going to come out better a third time. But with a lot at stake, it seems to me it would be essential to get it into the hands of an experienced accordion technician for an independent assessment. What if it really is something that could be fixed by some tuning work? There are some people here who know a lot about accordions (not me), but it's impossible for us to investigate the problem in the way that someone could in person.

 

[maugein96]

These days the nearest dealer of accordions of the type I play is in France, and I'd need to drive through England and get a ferry over. I'd rather do that than waste months trying to sort out an issue with a dealer and maker, that I'd have been able to pick up when I tried it out in the shop/store.

I seriously doubt whether I'll ever buy another accordion, as my standard of playing probably wouldn't justify it, but I promise if I do and there is anything wrong with it, I'll let you all know what make and model it is in the off chance that somebody on the forum with the same model might be able to put my mind at rest in a day or two, or maybe even so that you don't make the same mistake I did!

Accordions are a very big financial commitment for most of us. If you're still in two minds about it after all this time I'd be inclined to return it for a refund. There are guys on here who could tell you the function of every component in just about any type of accordion, if only they knew what that accordion was. I know you say you are not going to identify the make and model concerned. All I can say is that if your car breaks down on a motorway/freeway and you are asking for help to get it going again, you absolutely must identify the car make and model otherwise nobody has a clue what fault they are trying to find!

It's possibly not my place to say this, and I don't mean to be offensive, but this riddle has gone on for quite a while, and it seems unlikely that we are going to get much further down the road with it. If I was able to offer you any help or assistance I'd be the first to do so, but the way this has gone on doesn't give anybody much chance in that respect.

 

[debra]

Here is a short snippet from my accordion.

As a convertor instrument it has very deep bass.
I play a few notes on M-M without bass, then with bass,
then a few notes on M without bass, then with bass.
The microphone was positioned on the righthand side to capture the keyboard side as well as possible, but the strong bass is still strong.
I can hear a fluttering caused by the very large bass reeds vibrating and thus rapidly opening and closing an air hole, causing pressure differences.
I do not think the top of the line accordion with the bad vibrations sounds decidedly worse than my top of the line instrument from Russia. (Note that this instrument has no tremolo by default. I specifically ordered it with light tremolo.) I am happy with my accordion (partly because a similar Italian instrument would have cost twice of what the AKKO cost, and the AKKO is also quite a bit louder than any Italian accordion).
OktoberfestGirl should realize that as a concert instrument the first recording seems to give a nicer bass sound than the later ones, so whether the new reeds are actually an improvement are more a matter of taste than of fixing a defect.
I dont know what accordion it is (probably not a convertor instrument as the bass would then go down to E, not G) but the brand that is currently very popular among concert musicians (who dont play Bugari or Pigini) is Scandalli. If the affected instrument isnt already a Scandalli and you want an instrument that is popular and well-liked by concert players and that you can an exchange for that would be a viable choice. However, I fear the affected instrument is a Scandalli in which case that advice wont help.

 

[donn]

All I can say is that if your car breaks down on a motorway/freeway and you are asking for help to get it going again, you absolutely must identify the car make and model otherwise nobody has a clue what fault they are trying to find!

Interesting analogy (and tangentially, interesting that it isn't just here in the US that for some reason the car figures in so many analogies.) For various reasons I've always preferred older cars - a '50 Plymouth, a '73 Volvo, and their identity is very transparent - if you know anything about Chrysler ("MoPar") cars of that era, you know a lot about what I was driving, and same with Volvos of its era.

Then I inherited a '93 Ford Ranger pickup truck. Was it made in the US? Not sure. Is there a Japanese or Korean brand pickup that's apparently the same? I believe so, but misremember the make. How much would it have in common with a '96 Ford Ranger? I wouldn't care to guess. Identity is not so transparent here. Volvo has become Chrysler, am I right? Who can follow this stuff so well that a make and model really clarify anything.

It seems to me the same thing has happened in the accordion industry, manufacturers are merging or farming out things that they might have made in house, and a brand name means a little less. But maybe not such a big transition, since that has really been true in important ways for a long time? Particularly with reeds. We try to keep up on whose reeds come with which models, but it's a mystery, as the manufacturer rarely makes that information available in detail, or even in the broadest sense of country of origin.

 

[maugein96]

Sorry Donn,

I almost asked the OP if it was Colonel Mustard who did it in the billiard room with a candlestick! Unfortunately my patience ran out (again), and we got back into the old automobile comparison fiasco. I might as well record the engine of my car at tick-over up to full revs, and ask you all if that sounds normal or not? Only snag is you have to guess what make and model it is, and my car is definitely not a "top of the range" model.

I can understand why the OP doesn't want to identify the maker and the dealer, as there is probably a large amount of money dangling on the end of it all.

Paul's sound clip possibly took the sting out of my previous post, and the best thing I could have done was stay out of the topic, as I don't really know what the problem is anyway. Paul's clip clearly illustrates that a certain amount of bass vibration is normal.

At this stage in the proceedings I would be inclined to suggest to the OP that she hit the accordion (gently) with a 10lb hammer maybe 20 or 30 times, and see if that made any difference. It would certainly mean that there would be no possibility of returning it, so at least that would be an answer to one of the dilemmas!

 

[debra]

Joking aside, one should realize that in an attempt to keep accordions at least a little bit compact the largest bass reeds are on the same side as where on the keyboard side the reeds are outside of cassotto. The vibrations that cause rapidly oscillating air pressure differences are thus generated close to the tremolo M reeds. So the bass vibrations will have the most influence on the tremolo M reeds close to the bass reed that is playing. This is an inherent problem with accordion construction, especially with top of the line instruments that 1) have cassotto, use the largest and most powerful bass reeds and that have the bass reeds with a sound path as long as possible (sometimes on an additional shaft, sometimes using the "winkelbass" principle. So the attempts to improve the bass sound result in the bass having more and more influence on the sound of the treble side. This effect should then also be strongest when the bellows are opened only a little bit and should level off when the bellows are opened far. That would still be something for OktoberfestGirl to try: is there a difference depending on how far the bellows are opened?

 

[OktoberfestGirl]

Thanks again. I have listened to the recording of the Akko (thank you, Paul) and since then tried every instrument I could get my hands on to test the low bass effect on the treble side. I have come to the conclusion that some vibration is indeed normal and simply depends on the size, quality & weight of the box, how low the bass goes, and how sensitive the treble valves are. Having said that, in "real life" I do believe there is a fault producing an additional and unusual flutter in the accordion. It can't easily be shown in a recording but is there nevertheless. I have shown the accordion to a few other local accordionists with experience not just in playing but also in maintaining accordions. All agree this box has an issue. To wrap things up I have decided to ship the accordion back for a refund, and will purchase a completely different accordion. Hopefully second time around I will have more luck. Have a happy new year! Thanks for your patience and advice.

 

[colinm]

Thanks again. I have listened to the recording of the Akko (thank you, Paul) and since then tried every instrument I could get my hands on to test the low bass effect on the treble side. I have come to the conclusion that some vibration is indeed normal and simply depends on the size, quality & weight of the box, how low the bass goes, and how sensitive the treble valves are. Having said that, in real life I do believe there is a fault producing an additional and unusual flutter in the accordion. It cant easily be shown in a recording but is there nevertheless. I have shown the accordion to a few other local accordionists with experience not just in playing but also in maintaining accordions. All agree this box has an issue. To wrap things up I have decided to ship the accordion back for a refund, and will purchase a completely different accordion. Hopefully second time around I will have more luck. Have a happy new year! Thanks for your patience and advice.

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