Dingo40
Been here for ages!
Conspicuous consumption does certainly have it's attractions, though?
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"Best" Piano Accordion 41/120
- Thread starter danp76
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hais1273
Well-known member
Some wise words written here. The Beltuna leader looks an amazing bit of kit. It sounds great but I don't think I'd want one it looks a wee bit complicated for me, and a bit expensive.
I've heard two outstanding instruments in recent times. The first was a Scandalli double cassotto, the second was a Vignoni, again double cassotto, both instruments sounded pretty damned good, both were played by fine musicians. I don't know what the models were and it's absolutely impossible to say which sounded the best.
I play a Vignoni Ravel, it doesn't have cassotto and it isn't a 41/120. It's responsive, assertive and has a very sweet tone. As far as I'm concerned it's the tops. I love it.
I've heard two outstanding instruments in recent times. The first was a Scandalli double cassotto, the second was a Vignoni, again double cassotto, both instruments sounded pretty damned good, both were played by fine musicians. I don't know what the models were and it's absolutely impossible to say which sounded the best.
I play a Vignoni Ravel, it doesn't have cassotto and it isn't a 41/120. It's responsive, assertive and has a very sweet tone. As far as I'm concerned it's the tops. I love it.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
if you mean NEW and are getting your final Accordion for a Lifetime,
then i say go to Italy and meet the man and family behind Serenelli, and
select one of his Cassotto models where he fits the reeds onto Leather
(rather than wax)
the man, Luciano, has worked his entire Life to achieve a level of perfection
in this regard which few people can match.. and even fewer of this
elite group are Masters of their very own Factory
someday when he is long gone, people will be building his
Legend and his top line Accordions will be highly sought after
(meaning the ones he personally built and finished)
ciao
Ventura
then i say go to Italy and meet the man and family behind Serenelli, and
select one of his Cassotto models where he fits the reeds onto Leather
(rather than wax)
the man, Luciano, has worked his entire Life to achieve a level of perfection
in this regard which few people can match.. and even fewer of this
elite group are Masters of their very own Factory
someday when he is long gone, people will be building his
Legend and his top line Accordions will be highly sought after
(meaning the ones he personally built and finished)
ciao
Ventura
danp76
Active member
I met him last summer and the Serenellini team. Donatella speaks English quite well and was very helpful. I do have a Serenellini Regina Gold with Binci reeds.
Beltuna is mentioned a lot in this thread... but they have likely the most technologically advanced acoustic accordion in the world. I have no idea if it's any good but it has solenoids, so it is in effect a battery powered acoustic (sounds funny, I know) and it uses materials never used in an accordion before... like carbon fiber. Very interesting, light and a beautiful design!!
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
The more I think about it, the more it seems to me:
The best accordion is the one sitting on your lap!??
The best accordion is the one sitting on your lap!??
Ventura
Been here for ages!
when trying to define "the best" of the new, you first need to
dissasociate yourself from the old ways of thinking about
Accordion Manufacturing
times have changed vastly.. and the biggest thing to realize is
there are very very few places that actually BUILD accordion bodies
and matching reedblocks
even fewer places make Reeds
most reeds are pre-tuned on modern machines independent of any
consideration of the specific accordion they will be used in and sold in
sets or bulk to the "builders"
most reeds are waxed onto the Reedblocks by private workers in their
own homes (contract by the piece)
Action Mechanisms are provided to most by a specialist company who ceased
building their own brand of ACCORDION in the 70's
Keytops are cut from Lexan (and similar) provided by typical chemical and
plastics companies
many components of best practice standards in the 1960's are simply
no longer affordable to our small industry
(with it's extremely limited buying power) like trenched cardboard
and (de-salted purified) leather which is why you see artificial reed leathers
and such (the finest Italian Leather goes into Furniture and Shoes.. not Accordions)
so while there are still quite a few "brands" of accordions, and seemingly
much competition, in actuality most are mere boutique "finishers" who
have (by necessity) bought virtually all of their components from
third party and specialist providers
therefore, regarding the Boutique accordions, obviously the principal
thing that sets them apart from each other is Cosmetic
a few of these brands have some specialist strong suit in their finishing
and finessing these (common) components into smoother, swifter, softer,
mellower, louder differences
and there are a few actual accordion "Factories" still in existence that CAN
make much of their own accordions.. but NONE of them can make everything
some, like Pigini, still make their own Bellows, or like FisItalia have a specialty
in Bodywork and finishing (you can order a new ferrari and perfectly Matching accordion
in the classic colors) FisItalia also has a specialty in Tuning or Serenellini with
his meticulous perfectly mounted on leather reed setups
one old accordion factory (i call it the Dungeon up on the Hill) of course started
importing Korean bodies and finishing them with Italian Reeds on premises then
marking them "made in Italy"
they got caught
but how can you tell how much % of an Accordion is unique and how much % is just
same as everyone elses ? for that matter how much is sourced in Italy at all or is it
like an "american" built car ?
it is really hard to figure this out nowadays.. more smoke and mirrors than ever before
Caveat Emptor is truly the wisdom for modern times
my feeling is believe very little of what they tell you, and let your
fingers and ears and brain be your guide
simply trying to keep up with which old (once trusted) brand name is actually
still to be trusted and which are deteriorating behind the scenes into a critical
meltdown (Borsini.. Fantini... and others come to mind)
while i am happy to see some survive, and that there are people who still
care and put a lot of effort and heart into their accordions, i am also
sad to see what pretends to be a $10,000 accordion in many cases
anno 2020
ciao
Ventura
dissasociate yourself from the old ways of thinking about
Accordion Manufacturing
times have changed vastly.. and the biggest thing to realize is
there are very very few places that actually BUILD accordion bodies
and matching reedblocks
even fewer places make Reeds
most reeds are pre-tuned on modern machines independent of any
consideration of the specific accordion they will be used in and sold in
sets or bulk to the "builders"
most reeds are waxed onto the Reedblocks by private workers in their
own homes (contract by the piece)
Action Mechanisms are provided to most by a specialist company who ceased
building their own brand of ACCORDION in the 70's
Keytops are cut from Lexan (and similar) provided by typical chemical and
plastics companies
many components of best practice standards in the 1960's are simply
no longer affordable to our small industry
(with it's extremely limited buying power) like trenched cardboard
and (de-salted purified) leather which is why you see artificial reed leathers
and such (the finest Italian Leather goes into Furniture and Shoes.. not Accordions)
so while there are still quite a few "brands" of accordions, and seemingly
much competition, in actuality most are mere boutique "finishers" who
have (by necessity) bought virtually all of their components from
third party and specialist providers
therefore, regarding the Boutique accordions, obviously the principal
thing that sets them apart from each other is Cosmetic
a few of these brands have some specialist strong suit in their finishing
and finessing these (common) components into smoother, swifter, softer,
mellower, louder differences
and there are a few actual accordion "Factories" still in existence that CAN
make much of their own accordions.. but NONE of them can make everything
some, like Pigini, still make their own Bellows, or like FisItalia have a specialty
in Bodywork and finishing (you can order a new ferrari and perfectly Matching accordion
in the classic colors) FisItalia also has a specialty in Tuning or Serenellini with
his meticulous perfectly mounted on leather reed setups
one old accordion factory (i call it the Dungeon up on the Hill) of course started
importing Korean bodies and finishing them with Italian Reeds on premises then
marking them "made in Italy"
they got caught
but how can you tell how much % of an Accordion is unique and how much % is just
same as everyone elses ? for that matter how much is sourced in Italy at all or is it
like an "american" built car ?
it is really hard to figure this out nowadays.. more smoke and mirrors than ever before
Caveat Emptor is truly the wisdom for modern times
my feeling is believe very little of what they tell you, and let your
fingers and ears and brain be your guide
simply trying to keep up with which old (once trusted) brand name is actually
still to be trusted and which are deteriorating behind the scenes into a critical
meltdown (Borsini.. Fantini... and others come to mind)
while i am happy to see some survive, and that there are people who still
care and put a lot of effort and heart into their accordions, i am also
sad to see what pretends to be a $10,000 accordion in many cases
anno 2020
ciao
Ventura
Ventura, you are right, but perhaps a bit optimistic about the past. For many decades accordions have been built using 90% standard components, and frankly, there is no good reason not to because it saves cost and doesn't make much of a difference anyway. Think of keys, register mechanisms and soundboards to go with them, bass buttons, ... and this is all a very good thing because accordion repairers can stock up on many parts needed in repairs without needing stockpiles for each individual accordion make. Carini has been the main wholesale supplier for smaller firms for a long time (but nowadays most firms use different sources, more direct) and is still the main supplier of parts for repairers.
What sets manufacturers apart are the accordion bodies (shells) and most importantly the reed blocks. The blocks, with the resonance chambers for each individual note, have different shapes and are made out of different woods, and this is responsible for a large part of what makes the sound of an accordion. Reed makers are far and few between but there are still quite a few and also different types of reeds, so there is still a choice that contributes to the sound, but the reeds actually contribute less (to sound differences) than many people believe. The resonance chambers and materials of the reed blocks, and flawless waxing, have greater influence on the sound than the reeds themselves. What does matter is the thickness and toughness of the steel that is used for the reeds. Current reed makers no longer produce reeds that compare to some of the artisanal products of 50 years ago. This is why the "legendary" accordions like a Super 6 or a Gola from around 1960 can no longer be reproduced.
What sets manufacturers apart are the accordion bodies (shells) and most importantly the reed blocks. The blocks, with the resonance chambers for each individual note, have different shapes and are made out of different woods, and this is responsible for a large part of what makes the sound of an accordion. Reed makers are far and few between but there are still quite a few and also different types of reeds, so there is still a choice that contributes to the sound, but the reeds actually contribute less (to sound differences) than many people believe. The resonance chambers and materials of the reed blocks, and flawless waxing, have greater influence on the sound than the reeds themselves. What does matter is the thickness and toughness of the steel that is used for the reeds. Current reed makers no longer produce reeds that compare to some of the artisanal products of 50 years ago. This is why the "legendary" accordions like a Super 6 or a Gola from around 1960 can no longer be reproduced.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
good points Debra... i can easily see that this helps repairers keep
spare parts more affordably at the ready
and while the experimentation and codification of shifting mechanisms
was interesting, it is surely more reliable as a commonly done setup
based on common hardware.. From the rockers through Mr. Nunzio's
casual frustrated mention of "why not just have pre-set pushers for
each combination" to his friend Settimo during a visit to Italy, and then
all the variations like Centromatic and the delicate protrusion shifts
on the AC etc. and shifts that looked like a tiny keyboard ! so many variations
Action mechanisms and common bodies, however, i do not see as a "better way"
to do things, because the needs of a parts or assembly maker can be at odds with
the accordion builder. For example, the suppliers need to make them a bit thicker,
stronger, so the parts will survive shipment, a few drops while moved around in storage,
yet make it to the final assembly stage is against the builders objective of
lighter weight overall. If Pigini had to rely on 3rd party actions, they would not
have been able to get the same results as they did on that 3/4 size 4 reed treble
PanCordion (one of their last design collaborations with Faithe Deffner) where they
more or less Swiss Cheezed every piece of Aluminum in the accordion to shave off
a ounce or two ! it took a lot of trial and error to find the sweet spot between
accomplishing their goal and leaving enough strength in the metal parts
and what if you desire to build a LL MM accordion but rely on the generally
available standard accordion bodies from the supplier ? there is not enough
clearance internally to accomodate the flex of the second L reedset without buzzing
and the body builder is unlikely to say yes to a costly change for a small order.
the interior wood... an easy way to cut costs but lose years of life on an accordion...
Why DO those TItano's built by Victoria hold their shape and integrity so well ?
on one visit to Italy this one builder dropped a beautiful Woodie off at the Hotel
for me to try, and it played very nicely and had great action. Later that night
i popped the grille and the bellows and found most of the interior including
the plate where the reedblocks mount to be made from cheap, common Asian 3 ply
Mahogany Plywood. This accordion looked and played like a top line box,
but would never have stood the test of time in a Professionals busy gigging hands
and i admit the stash of accordions i luckily ended up with will far far outlive me
so these modern problems and issues are not weighing upon me heavily !
ciao
Ventura
spare parts more affordably at the ready
and while the experimentation and codification of shifting mechanisms
was interesting, it is surely more reliable as a commonly done setup
based on common hardware.. From the rockers through Mr. Nunzio's
casual frustrated mention of "why not just have pre-set pushers for
each combination" to his friend Settimo during a visit to Italy, and then
all the variations like Centromatic and the delicate protrusion shifts
on the AC etc. and shifts that looked like a tiny keyboard ! so many variations
Action mechanisms and common bodies, however, i do not see as a "better way"
to do things, because the needs of a parts or assembly maker can be at odds with
the accordion builder. For example, the suppliers need to make them a bit thicker,
stronger, so the parts will survive shipment, a few drops while moved around in storage,
yet make it to the final assembly stage is against the builders objective of
lighter weight overall. If Pigini had to rely on 3rd party actions, they would not
have been able to get the same results as they did on that 3/4 size 4 reed treble
PanCordion (one of their last design collaborations with Faithe Deffner) where they
more or less Swiss Cheezed every piece of Aluminum in the accordion to shave off
a ounce or two ! it took a lot of trial and error to find the sweet spot between
accomplishing their goal and leaving enough strength in the metal parts
and what if you desire to build a LL MM accordion but rely on the generally
available standard accordion bodies from the supplier ? there is not enough
clearance internally to accomodate the flex of the second L reedset without buzzing
and the body builder is unlikely to say yes to a costly change for a small order.
the interior wood... an easy way to cut costs but lose years of life on an accordion...
Why DO those TItano's built by Victoria hold their shape and integrity so well ?
on one visit to Italy this one builder dropped a beautiful Woodie off at the Hotel
for me to try, and it played very nicely and had great action. Later that night
i popped the grille and the bellows and found most of the interior including
the plate where the reedblocks mount to be made from cheap, common Asian 3 ply
Mahogany Plywood. This accordion looked and played like a top line box,
but would never have stood the test of time in a Professionals busy gigging hands
and i admit the stash of accordions i luckily ended up with will far far outlive me
so these modern problems and issues are not weighing upon me heavily !
ciao
Ventura
Last edited:
Ai yi yi, so you're saying I should have kept all those old accordions that flowed through my hands instead of buying new ones? They are still out there but I am not so interested in restoring them. Luckily I still have a classic Rivoli (to restore) and my Cruccianelli.
Say, Ventura, what do you think about the boutique organetto makers, Dino Baffetti, Della Noce, etc, same deal?
Say, Ventura, what do you think about the boutique organetto makers, Dino Baffetti, Della Noce, etc, same deal?
Most accordion manufacturers (afaik) still make their own accordion bodies as well as the reed blocks, because these contribute to the sound and also the look of the accordions. But they do build the bodies to accommodate standard soundboards, keyboard parts and bass mechanisms. When you are Pigini churning out large numbers of accordions you can make many more parts yourself than when you are a smaller outfit. All smaller outfits do not produce enough accordions to for instance design and build their own convertor bass mechanisms. But everyone designs (and mostly also makes) their own "signature" grille. As an (amateur) repairer I am very glad that many components are standardized. And as an (amateur) player I am also glad because standard mass-produced components make accordions slightly less expensive.
ArtMustel
Active member
Best accordion? Easy, it is the Pigini Mythos.
Seriously, it depends. I wouldn't buy one even if I were a Bezos. My own best accordion has to be a musette, probably a Fratelli Crosio, like the ones that were played by French musette stars like Andre Verchuren and Ivette Horner. I understand that my preference is odd, with so many talented people that play so many different styles!
Seriously, it depends. I wouldn't buy one even if I were a Bezos. My own best accordion has to be a musette, probably a Fratelli Crosio, like the ones that were played by French musette stars like Andre Verchuren and Ivette Horner. I understand that my preference is odd, with so many talented people that play so many different styles!
I like to read these threads to get a take on what others with years of experience think. Star players - not so much!
I know Dick Contino has been quoted as saying the Excelsior, the Cordovox, and ultimately the Petosa were the best accordions he ever played. Frank Marocco has said the Petosa was the best accordion he ever played, until he said the same thing about Victoria. I believe it has more to do with who sponsored them at any given time than the actual accordion itself!
I was enamored with Petosa and happened upon my accordion teacher about a decade ago and mentioned it to him. He laughed and said they were overpriced and poorly performing accordions. They were great in the 60s but dropped off precipitously over the course of the next 50 years. He's an Excelsior guy, as he was close friends with jazz great Art Van Damme who also was exclusively Excelsior.
I've played some nice Bugari accordions. I have never played a Petosa. I played a nice Zero Sette once that I still recall. Now with all the ownership changes, consolidation, degradation of old-school accordion-making methods, and exits from the industry from some very big names, I have no idea what is good anymore.
I have a 2000 Excelsior 960 custom that I love. My favorite by far is still my FR-8X and it doesn't have any reeds at all.
I know Dick Contino has been quoted as saying the Excelsior, the Cordovox, and ultimately the Petosa were the best accordions he ever played. Frank Marocco has said the Petosa was the best accordion he ever played, until he said the same thing about Victoria. I believe it has more to do with who sponsored them at any given time than the actual accordion itself!
I was enamored with Petosa and happened upon my accordion teacher about a decade ago and mentioned it to him. He laughed and said they were overpriced and poorly performing accordions. They were great in the 60s but dropped off precipitously over the course of the next 50 years. He's an Excelsior guy, as he was close friends with jazz great Art Van Damme who also was exclusively Excelsior.
I've played some nice Bugari accordions. I have never played a Petosa. I played a nice Zero Sette once that I still recall. Now with all the ownership changes, consolidation, degradation of old-school accordion-making methods, and exits from the industry from some very big names, I have no idea what is good anymore.
I have a 2000 Excelsior 960 custom that I love. My favorite by far is still my FR-8X and it doesn't have any reeds at all.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
i was able to match my 960 in programming on my original FR7 ...
it was the first thing i did after i reset all the nuisance parameters
this 960 has all 3 MMM reedsets tuned to a-440
for an amazing Jazz sound (i had it finished for me during
a visit to Cemex and brought it home... it has MIDI also)
ciao
Ventura
it was the first thing i did after i reset all the nuisance parameters
this 960 has all 3 MMM reedsets tuned to a-440
for an amazing Jazz sound (i had it finished for me during
a visit to Cemex and brought it home... it has MIDI also)
ciao
Ventura
My 960 also has three MMM reedsets with a smooth jazz sound. I'd have to look at the tuning - it's been 20 years and I have forgotten.
I purchased it through John Castiglione and it took them 6 months to construct it. It has the AC grill, white bass buttons, Sennheiser mic system, and a host of other custom touches that for some reason were important to me back then. I believe the total price back then was around $6800 US.
John visited the factory in Italy and gave me an update at about the halfway point. I really love this accordion but it is massively heavy with the 5/5 configuration. The sound is beautiful and I make sure to play it every month to keep it alive, but I far prefer my FR-8X. Connecting it to the BK-7M allows me to play longer as the rhythm section spurs creativity as I play.
I also tailored a couple sets on the FR-8X to closely match my 960. All that power in the FR-8X and I basically use three sounds - jazz bassoon, clarinet and a musette occasionally. Very rarely I'll layer an organ or maybe use the saxophone for an interlude but I always feel slightly silly when playing woodwinds or strings on my accordion.
Do you still play your 960 often or is it mostly digital now for you as well?
embers
Member
Your expression describing the weight of your custom Excelsior sounds quite accurate. I doubt if the 960 I found for sale at Accordion Centre, Birmingham is identical to yours. But I searched for it to get an idea of your description that your 960 " is massively heavy." At this shop, the EXCELSIOR, MODEL: VAN DAMME 930 JAZZ ACCORDION, is described as a "1970’s model made for Larry Macari, London, to USA Excelsior spec 5372." It is listed as weighing 12.5 kg. My professional Sano, made in the early 1960s, weighs 12.7 kg. I'd agree with your weight description. Even though the weight can be tiring at times, the smooth sounds it generates makes it a best box for me --- just as you like your 960. :*)
embers
Member
On Saturday mornings I often re-read posts I find interesting, which are made during the last week. The "best" commentaries made by everyone in this thread are all worthwhile. I still end up thinking that Dingo has said it closest to what I think is the best PA, too.
Yup, at some point you have to love the one you're with, as we said back in the day, otherwise you will never meet your zen. I can understand the considerations, however of those seeking the perfect model ....
I was curious so I just weighed both of my Excelsior accordions. Complete with straps, chest pads, and anything else that I would need to just pick them up and play them.
Excelsior 960 5/5 - 32.2 pounds (14.6 kg)
Excelsiola 930 Art Van Damme - 27.0 pounds (12.2 kg)
From playing both of them I will tell you that 5 pound difference between them is HUGE. It probably also has a lot to do with how much more cumbersome the 960 is with the larger size required to accommodate the 5 treble reedsets.
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