Best glue for reed leathers?

[debra]

...
New materials arrive in the market, but it's often impossible to know what we're dealing with. ...

I have reached the age where I stop worrying that I don't know all the details. I don't need to know the finest detail of the composition of shoe glue. I do need to know that it works and has done so for many decades, and if shoemakers use it, it must work and also be reliable.
Some things about accordions remain a mystery to me, but many things are not specific to accordions. If you want a good glue for wood, including wood under stress, just look at what glue is used by string instrument makers (from violin to double base, guitar, lute, etc.) I think they do use mostly hide glue actually. And when you need glue for leather, look at what the leather industry uses... Accordions are pretty much the "new kid on the block" so we can look at others to learn what to use.

 

[John Doe]

have never had a single reedleather held in place
by shellac to fall off

Fine stuff in the short (a couple of decades) term. That actually ought to be quite long enough for many.

Don't believe that shellac is a good "permanent" adhesive though. Clarinets and sax's both used shellac- in many cases a full surface of the back side of the leather pad in the cup- as the traditional method. Open the case of "vintage" saxes and clarinets and expect to find an assortment of pads fallen out ot their cups with a neat shellac cup shaped blob on their backs. Shellac can and does give up with the passage of time becoming brittle and no longer particularly adhering to things.

Even with the blowing air, reed fixing is a low stress appolication of course.

Given that the pads in woodwinds truly do become worn out (harden/torn/shrunk/generally no longer able to work right) having the glue give up really isn't an issue in the ten-twenty year time frame. Shellac does also allow for a reheat and refloat for pads to help older pads stay useful for longer. Many manufacturers now use hot melt adhesives which last a bit longer and are also adjustable- though quite capable of turning into a strungy mess if applied carelessly.

For reed leathers the only real issues are long term adhesion and removability in the course of time without creating a mess. As with Brylcream there isn't more than a dab needed. The reheat and refloat is not much of a requirement for accordion valves.

Wax and shellac for leathers both just don't cut it in comparison with "shoe adhesives" or leather glues/adhesives. (this centered on valves, not on emplacing plates on blocks which is a different kettle of fish)

Wax and shellac were both convenient and on hand back in the day (in addition to not having much particularly better competition in the adhesive field)- but that day is done.

As pointed out earlier though- for most ten to twenty years is a long enough time in any case so unless you choose some wild alternative such as super glue (a really terrible choice) they all work OK ...

 

[Rosie C]

As pointed out earlier though- for most ten to twenty years is a long enough time in any case so unless you choose some wild alternative such as super glue (a really terrible choice) they all work OK ...

... and yet I bought a tube of 'valve glue' from a well-known supplier and it is super glue

 

[John Doe]

... and yet I bought a tube of 'valve glue' from a well-known supplier and it is super glue

And it probably sticks and sticks hard almost instantly! I'd only be concerned about how rigid it makes the leather (if you're using it on leather) and how it comes off when the time comes as the stuff is indeed- "super".

Most other-than-wax or shellac (which leaves its own trail of fragments to go hither and yon when scraped off) adhesives are easier to apply than remove.

Serves me right for a thoughtless offhand crack. Fortunately there are enough self inflicted holes already in my feet that one more won't matter.



*I'd like to think that the super glue supplied was of the gel variety?

 

[Ventura]

Clarinets and sax's both used shellac

i am wondering if the "environment" of being in a Sax or
Clarinette is why the effective life-span of shellac
is so short on the pads.. the metal gets cold and there
is a lot of dampness as well as getting bounced around
a lot between school and band practice and home and the
pads themselves are constantly getting beaten by the valve action

and also, the school use instruments get checked out
every year during the off season and the music stores i
was associated with that had repair services often changed
the pads.. pad kits were also always a big seller for the
people who had purchased an instrument and kept learning/
playing throughout high school and beyond.. it's not
a difficult repair to do and certainly a big part of that is
a glue that holds well but comes off cleanly and easily..
i seem to remember they spent the most time repairing
and adjusting the actions, which would get bent or the
springs got messed up

 

[Aaron]

Glue sticking to metal is just problematic. There is nothing to penetrate into and grab tight. This is why softer glues do better, they flow and conform to the slight irregularities enough to grab a bit. Things like shellac work in some situations, but not nearly as well. Using a softer glue is generally better for metal.

 

[John Doe]

am wondering if the "environment" of being in a Sax or
Clarinette is why the effective life-span of shellac
is so short on the pads..

You are on the money as I see it in many regards. It is surely a different environment twixt the back of a pad in a cup and as a dab on the end of a leather strip on the reed plate.

Hammering action aside, the contraction/expansion of the metal cups due to temperature changes would surely exert a much more pronounced effect on the interface between the shellac and the metal in the woodwinds. In addition a slight distortion of a cup due to careless handling might not even be cosmetically all that noticeable- but given the brittleness of shellac might well break of severely weakn the bond. This would not be an issue in an accordion valve scenario.

Clarinet pad replacement is fairly straightforward- at least to a "make it make sound" level, a bit more challenging to do a decent set up on a sax where getting beyond the "gorilla grip" seal standard really does tak patience and experience. Bent mdchanisms surely don't help things and putting the horns away with the pads wet adds a bit of sauce to the situation.

And of course there's always an incentive for stores to hawk well marked up quick solutions to problems which are fundamantally best addressed through user practice.

"I don't sound like Woody/Pietro/Lester. must be the pads or the instrument..."

 

[Rosie C]

*I'd like to think that the super glue supplied was of the gel variety?

I’ve not tried it - it was a lot more expensive than superglue at my local store and I’d been expecting something more specialist.

(I was agreeing with you in my previous BTW)

 

[John Doe]

(I was agreeing with you in my previous BTW)

KABOOM There it is, a hole in the other foot- at least I'm now symmetric...

Actually, as a practical matter based upon a just conducted hasty "stick a few on just to see" on a pretty much derelict accordion I have here, the super glue gel works OK. The normal liquid type not so much.

The gel takes a couple of seconds to adhere allowing for quick adjustments. Any excess oozing out makes me really leery as it is what it is after a few minutes and what it is is really solid. Were it to get on the reed toungue you'd have a real painful mess to free the toungue- and if not completely cleaned you'd almost surely throw the thing out of tune if not fully rendering the reed non-op.

Wax or shellac or shoe glue or PVA adhesives can be irksome to clean up in the event of careless application getting adhesive where it oughtn't be- but htat's merely a bit of tedious busy work to set right. Misguided and hardened super glue gel impresses me as really painful to set right.

The liquid type wicks right into the leather and makes it stiff as a board. I'm not sure that's a good thing though you could say the same about leather ends with shellac or other glues upon the end of the leather to an extent. The stuff grabs instantly -including to my index finger which was not improved by the addition of a leather valve flappng off the end. Naturally, it sticks better to my finger than the reed plate meaning you probably want to position and affix with some kind of poker (I used a screwdriver, any number of things would, of course, work)

Get the liquid exactly right when you first put it on, you can't reposition and when you try to pull it off part of the leather remains on the plate.

Did not trial either on plastic valves but both would probably be OK. The gel probably a better choice but that it'd ooze out the sides so "less would be more...". It could be annoyingly messy and difficult to tidy up if it strayed. I know it's inside the instrument but still, neatness counts.

Based upon use of superglue with teflon strips on the action of other woodwinds the adhesion is OK- though the teflon generally has laser etching on the obverse side to enhance adhesion.

I ,personally, am not contemplating a switch to cyano-acrylics for valves. Given that I get good mileage from superglues in many applications, that is a pretty strong "no" vote from yours truly.

 

[Shaun_of_the_red]

Yes. To get high you drink shellac; sniff shoe glue. Not the other way round*.

*I feel it's necessary to add a 2025-era nanny state disclaimer: obviously, I'm just joking. Drinking shellac dissolved in meths will kill you faster than sniffing shoe glue, but both will kill you pretty quickly. Say "no" to alcohol, drugs and sex before marriage.

Seriously though, this gasket shellac is tempting! It looks like molasses and smells like vanilla extract… do you think I could bake with it?