Rock guitarists?

[Harrytulipan]

I've been trying to play accordion with a rock guitarist (he liked Thin Lizzy, I think). It seems to be hard for him to get the polka feel on the guitar.
Is it difficult to play with rock guitarists (unless you play rock blues)?

I find that playing with people who have had "classical" or "trad" training are easier to play with.

Are rock guitarist difficult?

I talked with a friend who said that people who play traditional or accordion music often want to sound very tight in the band.
I'm not saying that Thin Lizzy wasn't tight or whatever you call it...but dance music is way different.
Dance musicians are very special.

What are your experiences?

 

[JeffJetton]

I don't think this particular case leads to generalization about rock guitarists. It's difficult for anyone to play in a style that they're not used to, whether it's a rock guitarist just starting out playing polkas, or a folk accordionist first trying to play jazz. There are those who can play well in many different styles and idioms, but no one (that I know of) who can play well in *all* of them.

Even within a genre, there can be difficulties. For example, a classically-trained musician might still struggle in a historically-accurate baroque ensemble, or playing a Strauss waltz with an authentic "Viennese" rhythm.

Anyway, give the guitarist some patience and time. I'm sure he'll pick it up with more experience. If he likes Thin Lizzy he can't be all bad!

 

[Harrytulipan]

I don't think this particular case leads to generalization about rock guitarists. It's difficult for anyone to play in a style that they're not used to, whether it's a rock guitarist just starting out playing polkas, or a folk accordionist first trying to play jazz. There are those who can play well in many different styles and idioms, but no one (that I know of) who can play well in *all* of them.

Even within a genre, there can be difficulties. For example, a classically-trained musician might still struggle in a historically-accurate baroque ensemble, or playing a Strauss waltz with an authentic "Viennese" rhythm.

Anyway, give the guitarist some patience and time. I'm sure he'll pick it up with more experience. If he likes Thin Lizzy he can't be all bad!

You are into something but...I think the rhythm guitarist in a dance ensemble has another role than in a rock ensemble.
I would say that even if you can play Folsom prison blues a polka might be a bit hard.

Even just because you can play Buck's polka doesn't mean you can play polkas that well. What kind of polka is that?

Do musicians too often think they are better at a style than they really are?
It seems to be that way.

 

[Tom]

"Do musicians too often think they are better at a style than they really are?
It seems to be that way."

In my experience, most musicians (myself included) think they are better than they really are. Period. Generally this is not a problem, although some are frankly intolerable. Actually, this is a good thing, because music playing is hard, and the meek shall never prosper.

Just comes down to, can you deal with this person as a person? Or will he or she wreck your band? A real problem in band world.

Some musicians think they are worse than they are. This is unusual but also a problem, because you have to motivate them to continue to show up.....

Yeah, it can be easier to just play as a solo act, but it takes two to tango, and playing (successfully) with other people is the holy grail as far as I can see.

 

[Harrytulipan]

"Do musicians too often think they are better at a style than they really are?
It seems to be that way."

In my experience, most musicians (myself included) think they are better than they really are. Period. Generally this is not a problem, although some are frankly intolerable. Actually, this is a good thing, because music playing is hard, and the meek shall never prosper.

Just comes down to, can you deal with this person as a person? Or will he or she wreck your band? A real problem in band world.

Some musicians think they are worse than they are. This is unusual but also a problem, because you have to motivate them to continue to show up.....

Yeah, it can be easier to just play as a solo act, but it takes two to tango, and playing (successfully) with other people is the holy grail as far as I can see.

It sems that it is me teaching him my styles.
This is bad as I am not in the mood to teach.
He says that he is a young man trained as a music teacher. I guess pop and rock music is the focus now.

I doubt that he thinks he is very good my styles. It is more that he is willing to learn but I do not want to be a teacher. I want to play music.
I hate playing with musicians who require me to be their teacher. Sure, I can help if needed but I am no teacher.
I am also not even a guitarist at all.
I talked with the person today about this and he used a term for what they do in rock music. I don't know the term in English.
But you play much in rock music. Dance music more about not playing so many notes in the accompaniment


Do you relate?

 

[Tom]

It sems that it is me teaching him my styles.
This is bad as I am not in the mood to teach.
He says that he is a young man trained as a music teacher. I guess pop and rock music is the focus now.

I doubt that he thinks he is very good my styles. It is more that he is willing to learn but I do not want to be a teacher. I want to play music.
I hate playing with musicians who require me to be their teacher. Sure, I can help if needed but I am no teacher.
I am also not even a guitarist at all.
I talked with the person today about this and he used a term for what they do in rock music. I don't know the term in English.
But you play much in rock music. Dance music more about not playing so many notes in the accompaniment


Do you relate?

Yes I relate. I agree that in dance music "less is more." Seems like you are not compatible, music wise, with this guitar player.

I enjoy teaching if the new musician really wants to learn. Especially if I can teach a style that I can play with them.

It's really hard finding people you want to play with, that also want to play with you. Maybe not for everyone, but that has been my experience. I say forget this guy and find someone more compatible.

Good luck!

 

[Valski]

Hello Harry,

You didn't say if you're playing a duet with the guitarist or if there is already an ensemble in place and the younger player is an additional member. If it's a duet, then this means more work for you to train that musician and if you're not ready and willing to assume that role of mentor then the relationship won't work. To me it's more fun and more fulfilling to work with another musician so you may want to try to be more patient. Perhaps getting the guitarist to listen to the styles of music that you play could help.

On new years eve I saw a band with a "rock " guitarist who is very accomplished but they didn't mesh perfectly with the dance band that he played with, however they were professional enough to try to meet half way due to necessity. Life seems to work that way.

It's like the joke about little Johnny telling his mother that he wants to be a Rock Guitarist when he grows up. His mother replied, "Johnny, you can only be one or the other!"

 

[Harrytulipan]

Hello Harry,

You didn't say if you're playing a duet with the guitarist or if there is already an ensemble in place and the younger player is an additional member. If it's a duet, then this means more work for you to train that musician and if you're not ready and willing to assume that role of mentor then the relationship won't work. To me it's more fun and more fulfilling to work with another musician so you may want to try to be more patient. Perhaps getting the guitarist to listen to the styles of music that you play could help.

On new years eve I saw a band with a "rock " guitarist who is very accomplished but they didn't mesh perfectly with the dance band that he played with, however they were professional enough to try to meet half way due to necessity. Life seems to work that way.

It's like the joke about little Johnny telling his mother that he wants to be a Rock Guitarist when he grows up. His mother replied, "Johnny, you can only be one or the other!"

It is a duo right now.
Why did I choose him? His cheap and keen to learn...seriously, I am probably bad at understanding how difficult my music can be.

Being a teacher sounds like a thing that is not my cup of tea. I can coach people a bit but being a teacher takes time and energy.
Isn't it hard to be a teacher?

 

[Valski]

It is a duo right now.
Why did I choose him? His cheap and keen to learn...seriously, I am probably bad at understanding how difficult my music can be.

Being a teacher sounds like a thing that is not my cup of tea. I can coach people a bit but being a teacher takes time and energy.
Isn't it hard to be a teacher?

Hi Harry, I have worked with other musicians in the past but don't consider myself to be a teacher because you have to be systematic when teaching and I think that my best role is to give tips on how things might be played. With that in mind, you might want to reconsider exactly how you play your music and try to meet your friend halfway and perhaps incorporate new ideas into your music.

Many years ago I had a mentor and from time to time would ask if had heard a "new " song, and he would smile and search his collection of sheet music to find earlier examples of the same song played in a slightly different style. If you're willing to adapt, perhaps you might put a slightly different perspective on some of the music that you play and therefore increase your audience. We never stop learning new things, just consider this forum and how revolutionary the technology would have been 30 years ago.

 

[cat]

I find the axiom attributed to Elvis, apt: Rhythm is something that either you have it, or you don't. If someone can't figure out how to play a polka rhythm, I don't see much future in music for them - not that polka music is essential, but that an intuitive grasp of rhythm is, in my opinion, the most essential aspect of music performance.

It's really hard finding people you want to play with, that also want to play with you. Maybe not for everyone, but that has been my experience. I say forget this guy and find someone more compatible.

I agree with what Tom said about the desirability of playing with others - it can seem like the holy grail. I played drums and bass semi pro for some years - naturally I was dependent upon group interaction. But having been unable to find like players (no Latin players in Montana that I've found in recent years), I've played solo for years. It certainly isn't the same as playing with others, but there are numerous advantages. Accordion is what I use to impart these syncopated rhythms - the machine can do a splendid job, solo.

 

[Ffingers]

"...but that an intuitive grasp of rhythm is, in my opinion, the most essential aspect of music performance."

So very true.

I recently signed on for music instruction by a talented multi instrumentalist.
His first comment on my pathetic attempts at demonstrating my limited abilities was words to the effect of: "Oh! Thank the gods that I don't need to try to teach timing and rhythm to you. You can have no idea just how difficult that can be with someone who does not have them instinctively."

 

[Mr Mark]

Hi; Former rock guitarist here...

I find that in general, a lot of folks I have jammed with tend to struggle (at least initially) with polkaesque rythyms. Guitarists seem to especially. I think this is revenge of the accordion gods...joking of course...

I think this has more to do with the fact the polka style is not and has not been prevalent in popular music culture (especially rock) for quite some time. I also know a couple of country guitarists with the same issue. Not to say they are bad players but it is usually very unfamiliar.

By the same token I often struggle to fit in with jams where the style isn't native to what I know on my instrument.

I have also had way more experiences than I can count of the egomaniacal rock star on guitar. Including when I used to play guitar - as a result I ended up with the saying that 'any more than one guitar in a band is too many'. I hate to say it but one-up-manship is part of the culture, part of the drive, and also part of the not very good. I think the problem with rock is the 'star' implication - meaning one.

To these ends not only do I have a heck of a time finding solid rhythm guitarists but also solid bass players, so many folks want to be the next Les Claypool...it's hard on music.

Sorry, I digress. I think the only thing that saved me was taking up Tuba in grade school...the conductor had an underlying temper that was not to be trifled with so I was pretty happy to stay 'in bounds' and learned the value of laying a solid rythm lest I wind up with a baton in my eye. More digression


I would think that someone who is trained well enough to be a teacher in their own right should be able to take a recording and figure out an accompanying part by ear on their own and come back to you with something that works. Unless of course you have something very specific in mind. I think with this approach you can both assuage their musical rock godliness and see to what extent they are really interested. Chances are it wont be exactly what you had in mind but just might do the trick.

Best of luck!

 

[Harrytulipan]

Hi; Former rock guitarist here...

I find that in general, a lot of folks I have jammed with tend to struggle (at least initially) with polkaesque rythyms. Guitarists seem to especially. I think this is revenge of the accordion gods...joking of course...

I think this has more to do with the fact the polka style is not and has not been prevalent in popular music culture (especially rock) for quite some time. I also know a couple of country guitarists with the same issue. Not to say they are bad players but it is usually very unfamiliar.

By the same token I often struggle to fit in with jams where the style isn't native to what I know on my instrument.

I have also had way more experiences than I can count of the egomaniacal rock star on guitar. Including when I used to play guitar - as a result I ended up with the saying that 'any more than one guitar in a band is too many'. I hate to say it but one-up-manship is part of the culture, part of the drive, and also part of the not very good. I think the problem with rock is the 'star' implication - meaning one.

To these ends not only do I have a heck of a time finding solid rhythm guitarists but also solid bass players, so many folks want to be the next Les Claypool...it's hard on music.

Sorry, I digress. I think the only thing that saved me was taking up Tuba in grade school...the conductor had an underlying temper that was not to be trifled with so I was pretty happy to stay 'in bounds' and learned the value of laying a solid rythm lest I wind up with a baton in my eye. More digression


I would think that someone who is trained well enough to be a teacher in their own right should be able to take a recording and figure out an accompanying part by ear on their own and come back to you with something that works. Unless of course you have something very specific in mind. I think with this approach you can both assuage their musical rock godliness and see to what extent they are really interested. Chances are it wont be exactly what you had in mind but just might do the trick.

Best of luck!

So you are a rock guitatist. Good. Then you can tell me what this is all about.
I was told that folk, trad and accordion music use a lot of open chords. The person in question said that he found that a bit difficult to play. I am confused because I thought that a standard G chord was an open chord. Perhaps that is something he isn't used to play.
Does pop and rock guitar seldom use open chords?
I met another rock guitarist who found playing standards chords difficult.
So some guitarists can realy only play bar chords?

I was also told by another person that playing with a dance feel on a guitar is a bit difficult. What do you think?

 

[dunlustin]

Part of the puzzle may be that 'open chord' may mean at least two different things:
Search Open chord and you'll get something about 'at least one unfretted string' on a guitar.
Search Piano open chord and it's about spreading the chord between both hands - for example root and 7 only on LH.
Also
Sometimes on a diatonic accordion removing the Third is said to give an open chord (read neutral - not Min not Maj)
And yes, a guitarist can get away with just barre chords (see The Everly Bros?).

 

[TomBR]

Q "How many guitarists (or fiddlers) does it take to change a lightbulb?"
A "About seven, one to change the bulb and six to sniff and say 'I can do that.' "

I'd shorten the quotation to "rhythm is, in my opinion, the most essential aspect of music performance." and totally agree.

I've never had to try to teach rhythm to someone who had no idea, but music is rhythm.
It's particularly relevant to my own main instrument, fiddle, where the pitch is variable, but good music depends on good rhythm/timing.
It's nice to get the notes right! It's a very good thing to get the notes right, but music with wrong notes can still sound good if the rhythm is good. Perfect notes can't save music where rhythm/timing is no good.

 

[Ventura]

time for another " Just Sayin' "

when anyone attempts to pull together other musicians and form a
duet/band/ensemble
they are not acting as Teachers, but as LEADERS

if you want to hire musician to play YOUR music in a supporting role,
then you are an ARRANGER and they are hired guns and you pay for
the Studio time and their hourly fee and force them to play YOUR songs
without any problems or regrets

the duty of a LEADER is to find the BEST in each musician and then
find a way to BRING THAT BEST OUT in the music played, whether that
allows the leader to play his personal favorite songs or NOT, it is nevertheless
his DUTY as a leader to fulfill the implied obligation of his position

it is not fair to attempt to force fit a raggedy old Ronnie Woods into some Lederhosen !

there are plenty of Banjo players in Polka bands, so strummers who can
are certainly and historically willing and able and available

so instead of being unhappy or a reluctant teacher, teach yourself how to play
some songs that damn Guitarist already knows !

just sayin'

 

[JeffJetton]

Being a teacher sounds like a thing that is not my cup of tea. I can coach people a bit but being a teacher takes time and energy.
Isn't it hard to be a teacher?

It depends. It requires patience and enthusiasm, which can be hard for some people. And it requires the ability to remember (or at least imagine) what it was like when you were at the same level as the student--a sort of empathy, I suppose. And that can also be hard for some people.

You also have to be able to listen to a lot of "not perfect" playing and not only not be bothered by it, but actually appreciate it as part of the wonderful learning process. Some people would rather crawl through broken glass.

I love it. But it's not everyone's cup of tea.

 

[Mr Mark]

So you are a rock guitatist. Good. Then you can tell me what this is all about.
I was told that folk, trad and accordion music use a lot of open chords. The person in question said that he found that a bit difficult to play. I am confused because I thought that a standard G chord was an open chord. Perhaps that is something he isn't used to play.
Does pop and rock guitar seldom use open chords?
I met another rock guitarist who found playing standards chords difficult.
So some guitarists can realy only play bar chords?

I was also told by another person that playing with a dance feel on a guitar is a bit difficult. What do you think?

As someone who was self taught, I learned utilizing TABS. Most Chords were Power Chords (Barring three strings only). Otherwise there was a lot of single notes augmented with distortion. Very few open chords. I didn’t actually learn a lot of traditional guitar chords until years down the road. I think one of the reasons is that distortion doesn’t work well with too many notes, the sound becomes too muddy - especially with open string chords, they ring more so than fretted notes.

I don’t know if your guitarist is playing clean or with distortion but one of the problems with how I (and a lot of others learn) is that the focus on tone (distortion) tends to cover a lot of sloppy playing. Getting some players to play clean (no distortion) is impossible as they aren’t willing to deal with their own shortcomings as a player.

I have no experience playing dance music, as you describe but could appreciate the fact I would have been seriously challenged to take that on earlier on in my existence. It’s kind of a 180 degree direction from rock and pop on a few different levels.

Playing really nice and clean electric guitar is a real art. Maybe starting on an acoustic is the better way to go (if you aren’t already there).

 

[Harrytulipan]

Here's a joke about guitarists. Accordionists seem in general to be better at reading sheet music than guitarists.

 

[Harrytulipan]

time for another " Just Sayin' "

when anyone attempts to pull together other musicians and form a
duet/band/ensemble
they are not acting as Teachers, but as LEADERS

if you want to hire musician to play YOUR music in a supporting role,
then you are an ARRANGER and they are hired guns and you pay for
the Studio time and their hourly fee and force them to play YOUR songs
without any problems or regrets

the duty of a LEADER is to find the BEST in each musician and then
find a way to BRING THAT BEST OUT in the music played, whether that
allows the leader to play his personal favorite songs or NOT, it is nevertheless
his DUTY as a leader to fulfill the implied obligation of his position

it is not fair to attempt to force fit a raggedy old Ronnie Woods into some Lederhosen !

there are plenty of Banjo players in Polka bands, so strummers who can
are certainly and historically willing and able and available

so instead of being unhappy or a reluctant teacher, teach yourself how to play
some songs that damn Guitarist already knows !

just sayin'

I am starting a new band with two other guys. Do we need a band leader?
Do small bands need a band leader?

I don't feel like doing a lot of organizing and planning and be the leader. My organizing skills are not that good, I think. Neither are the others that great at it.
Why can't all the be leaders?

We just want to play music. Do people who just want to play some music hace a vand leader?