Which Finger Combination 2-3 or 3-4

[Johnniez]

HI all

Being fairly new to the accordion, a few months is all, I am wondering which combination I should lean to on the bass buttons.

I am learning from video and there are two scenerios.

One is using 2nd finger and 3rd finger for example to play an oom paa paa. or anything else for that matter but you get it by using oom paa paa as an example

the Second way is to use 3rd finger and 4th finger ..

Which way is the better way? Is it how one is comfortable? or other issues?
Which way should I start to adhere to and why the difference ??

thanks
Johnnie

 

[Anyanka]

It depends what else you want to do with the bass - I was happiest with 3-4 until I took a workshop with John Kirkpatrick, who uses 2-3 and then employs the remaining fingers to throw in all sorts of runs & scales across fundamental & counterbasses.

 

[Glenn]

Hi Johnnie,

This has been discussed around these part a fair bit already.
The consensus is I think to use the one that best suits you with a slight leaning for the 4 - 3 method.
The 4 - 3 method gives you a 2nd finger to play with for longer stretches more efficiently in my opinion (but I'm sure others will disagree). :shock:

 

[artidots]

Phooo Hooo Johnnie, how long have you got eh ????

In my mis-spent youth I used 2 - 3, but returning to PA as a sort of walking ancient monument ("to what" they cried !?) I soon found 3 - 4 a lot more logical and certainly easier once I discovered what you were supposed to do with the 2nd finger (now, now, keep it polite eh). The very good Palmer Hughes tutor books lean towards 2 - 3, but 'The Mighty Accordion' (excellent book for learning bass, well in my opinion, not everyone's) plumps heavily for 3 - 4 and I guess I'm with Glenn on this one.

Anyanka's comment was interesting though, and I have vast respect for John Kirkpatrick about any squeezebox.

Ok ….. 'Next post' huh !!

Best Wishes

Rob

 

[BobM]

Hi Johnnie,

This has been discussed around these part a fair bit already.
The consensus is I think to use the one that best suits you with a slight leaning for the 4 - 3 method.
The 4 - 3 method gives you a 2nd finger to play with for longer stretches more efficiently in my opinion (but Im sure others will disagree). :shock:

I agree, but I tend to jump to 3:2 when 4:3 doesnt work or is awkward, and I find that little phrases like the bass arpeggios at the end of waltz sections are easier, especially the minor ones with 3:2. When I want to play with a variety of rhythms I like 4:3, because once its worked out its easy to change it from say Maj to Min to 7th without a change of hand position.

If I need a F/C to C7 ending on a F, or a Bb/C to C7 ending on F cadence, Ill use 3:2, which is similar to the Trad style as described by Anyanka.

So for me its mainly 4:3, and 3:2 as and when. And then theres the 2:4 hand flip for a min7b5 to a 7th..

BobM.

 

[losthobos]

And then there's the 2:4 hand flip for a min7b5 to a 7th..??
Tell me more Bob....this could be a 'need to know' thats been passing me by...thanks

 

[BobM]

And then theres the 2:4 hand flip for a min7b5 to a 7th..??
Tell me more Bob....this could be a need to know thats been passing me by...thanks

W-e-l-l, this to do with jazz harmony, but can be useful in other styles. Heres an YouTube that outlines the minor 2 5 1 progression.
As an example, if you wanted to play a minor 251 sequence in a tango say, you could fake it and just use a Fmin chord, to G7 to Cmin, (sounds lightweight) or the full Dmin7b5 (the 2 chord) which is created by using a D bass and an Fmin chord.

The usual way is to use a counterbass D off the Bb row, but this is a distance from the G7 which spoils the flow. So what I found by accident is that by changing the hand angle and playing the D bass with the second finger and the Fmin with the 4th, it put the whole sequence into one smooth movement. Theres a few other goodies to be found by jumping in, if you find something you like by accident, write it down!

Ive got no plans to play jazz on the accordion, but these little wrinkles can add a certain something..

BobM.

 

[Glenn]

And then theres the 2:4 hand flip for a min7b5 to a 7th..??
Tell me more Bob....this could be a need to know thats been passing me by...thanks

Indeed the rotation to 2-4 for jazz chords is a must.
Also 4-2 when sounding off the counter bass row.
In fact, anything goes.

 

[lasvegascolonel]

I remember asking this question about a year ago. I also started with the 2-3 system as that was the most common pattern (at least in the U.S.) back in the 1950s/60s. But I have found the 4:3 method preferable and find it comfortable. One study found it is better because you don't have to move your finger up as in the 2:3 system, especially with alternating basses...less movement and energy on your hand, they say. Palmer-Hughes, even in their 1962 books, shows both methods leaving it to the "instructor" to decide, though for the diminished chord/counterbass movement, they recommend 3:2 (third finger on the counterbass and the second on the diminished chord). I find the 4:3 makes sense to me. Some people outside the U.S. have said they learned the 4:3 way from the beginning.

 

[Rebeka]

I use 4/3. Partly because it feels more natural, but also because I always play crossovers, reaching up to the note above with my index finger
eg. C/CM G/CM etc (does that make sense?)

 

[Soulsaver]

Modern thinking is 43, but 32 players often use 4 for counter bass.. and many of us can do either, or a hybrid as (we think) called for. Whatever you can make work in all situations is fine on especially on the bass. I think 43 looks more pro somehow.. prob 'cos it's not what I do.

 

[rbs]

I once asked an accordionist that I knew (who was much better than me) about it, and she told me that you should be able to do both.

I normally use 4 3, but sometimes use 4 2 if playing in a minor key, or playing the 7th chord

I went to John Kirkpatrick's workshop on the left hand at Witney some years ago, and found that, although he advocated 2 3, I could do all the things that he as teaching us equally well using 4 3. He was quite relaxed about this

4 3 leaves you a spare finger both above & below the tonic for bass runs, while 2 3 only gives you spare fingers below

As a footnote, you should also use your little finger. It takes practice, but it's worth it

 

[JIM D.]

Both 2-3 and 3-4 will work just fine with a beginner on the stradella bass. As the accordionist progresses he or she will be using variations of both with different rhythm patterns and bass lines.

 

[BobM]

On many instruments, a topic like this would have spawned hundreds of videos. As an example, heres a random search for a similarly dry musical topic Trombone slide technique https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=trombone+slide+technique

Its as I quickly realised coming to the P/A 4 years ago, the notable players dont give out in the same way that the performers of other instruments so readily do. A competent accordionist who can play with either method, and playing exactly the same part, could easily demonstrate the pros and cons of this topic in a matter of minutes.

Moan over..

BobM.

 

[artidots]

Might be worth mentioning that Florence Glorion in her well regarded French CBA - C 'Methode...' tutor book strongly advocates what amounts to 3 - 4 on standard Stradella bass (although rather confusingly she uses different finger numbering).

I reckon Jim D above has it about right.

Rob

 

[simonking]

Ive said it before, but this is really a bogus question. You need to be able to play the bass part you want the best way possible. One thing Im certain about is that if youre only using the 2nd and 3rd finger because you cant yet use the 4th and 5th then bringing then into play as soon as possible can only improve your playing and make the bass more fluent. A good way to do this is play some scales on the bass (there are only a few patterns and variations to learn) - you will find parts of these crop up often in the bass in real music so its quite a valuable excercise.

As an example, if you wanted to play a minor 251 sequence in a tango say, you could fake it and just use a Fmin chord, to G7 to Cmin, (sounds lightweight) or the full Dmin7b5 (the 2 chord) which is created by using a D bass and an Fmin chord.

The usual way is to use a counterbass D off the Bb row, but this is a distance from the G7 which spoils the flow. So what I found by accident is that by changing the hand angle and playing the D bass with the second finger and the Fmin with the 4th, it put the whole sequence into one smooth movement. Theres a few other goodies to be found by jumping in, if you find something you like by accident, write it down!

Another way (often my preferred way) of playing Dmin7b5 is like you say but with 3 and 5 instead of 2 and 4. This leaves the 2 and 4 free and ready to play the G7 that comes next.

Talking of jazz chords, the G7 in this context can substituted for the chord a tritone away and/or altered by adding sharpened or flattened 9ths,11ths or 13ths. So now if you keep playing the G7 chord button with your 2nd finger but change the bass from G (4th finger) to C# (counterbass, 3rd finger), et voila - you have Db7#11, the altered tritone substitution of G7, all without too much pain.

Simon.

 

[Johnniez]

HI all.

Firstly someone back there mentioned about how this topic has been on here many times before and why not use the search..

Well, I did do that and thats why I posted what I posted.. I did a search and came up with the following.

Search found 380 matches: which fingers
Searched query: which fingers

If anyone thinks I am going to wade thru 380 messages your nuts. thats it.

Onward and forward we go..

Like I said I am very new to accordion and old scot has been showing me a few things. He is big on 32.. Most of vids I have are both leaning to the 43..

I have tried both and I can see using 43 how the fingers align better to the rows. I was getting on with the 32 but think I am going to hang in with the 43.. as the mainly learning..

So thanks for the info. Much appreciated. :ch

Johnnie