What specifically is wrong ,with chinese built Hohner accordions?

[OuijaBoard]

Interesting that a Chinese made Hohner was chosen for this website logo?

The whole gang gave that one a good going-over on another recent discussion of Chinese Hohners. This thread is something like 5 pages, but it's in there somewhere!

Irregular tremolo in brand new accordion plus other issues

The FB group "Traditional Irish Piano Accordion" features frequent posted playing clips by commenters of themselves or others in action, most quite delightful. Among them is a gent in rural Ireland having exuberant fun on a 3-voice Hohner Bravo. Honestly, it sounds almost as good for this use...

www.accordionists.info

 

[SteveBox]

Interesting that a Chinese made Hohner was chosen for this website logo?

It was recently discussed starting at this post:

Irregular tremolo in brand new accordion plus other issues

The FB group "Traditional Irish Piano Accordion" features frequent posted playing clips by commenters of themselves or others in action, most quite delightful. Among them is a gent in rural Ireland having exuberant fun on a 3-voice Hohner Bravo. Honestly, it sounds almost as good for this use...

www.accordionists.info

 

[EuroFolker]

I figured it wouldn't have gone unnoticed... Just did not see it discussed.

Hohner seems to be willing to allow the use of its logo / product image? Given that an iOS app uses it openly... and the most popular (only) accordion site as well?

 

[OuijaBoard]

I see this jaunty contributor in rural Ireland has posted another spirited clip to the FB Traditional Irish Piano Accordion group on his Asian Hohner:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/242631512474811/user/100010218339269/

 

[Plinky]

I figured it wouldn't have gone unnoticed... Just did not see it discussed.

Hohner seems to be willing to allow the use of its logo / product image? Given that an iOS app uses it openly... and the most popular (only) accordion site as well?

Hi Eurofolker, to be honest I think the most important part is the person playing .I thought my new and vintage both sounded pretty good but in the hands of a quality player they both sounded amazing.
The Bugari had a lovely handmade look with pearloid keys and that italian badge but as a beginner I don't think I could really appreciate the difference and it was considerably heavier than the bravo and 2 ½ times the price.
If I had to pick one based on how he played it and what he could get out of it ,and I didn't know the cost I would go for the vintage Hohner Its very light and when played properly one can use that slightly “raucous quality”to great effect.

 

[Plinky]

Interesting that a Chinese made Hohner was chosen for this website logo?

The whole gang gave that one a good going-over on another recent discussion of Chinese Hohners. This thread is something like 5 pages, but it's in there somewhere!

Irregular tremolo in brand new accordion plus other issues

The FB group "Traditional Irish Piano Accordion" features frequent posted playing clips by commenters of themselves or others in action, most quite delightful. Among them is a gent in rural Ireland having exuberant fun on a 3-voice Hohner Bravo. Honestly, it sounds almost as good for this use...

www.accordionists.info

It looks like my Hohner "silent key" may of had some improvements ,I was sent this screenshot

The one thing I am sure about is that China builds both very good and very bad products depending on price point,so writing off all products from that country would just be silly without actually trying them
I think they could build something equalling anything made ,as they are very good at buying a quality product stripping it and replicating it and accordions are not exactly high-tech.
In the sub £1000 budget for new with a proper warranty,there are very few options and buying second hand as a beginner could end up not only a financial nightmare but deter someone from playing,and without young players coming through no one will make accordions.

 

[dak]

Hi Eurofolker, to be honest I think the most important part is the person playing .I thought my new and vintage both sounded pretty good but in the hands of a quality player they both sounded amazing.

Well, I appreciate my instrument for sounding amazing in the hands of a third-class hack. Pretty enlightening to swap instruments with quality players and see how both are surprised at how much worse they end up.

 

[Plinky]

a friend once bought one of those Rosetti's because it looked
so nice with all the bling and had an italian name on it..
honesty, i tried to play a few songs on it for him, but had to
set it down and explain that the instrument was un-playable.

a decade later he picked up a mid sized Bravo 3 reed to keep at
his office so he could practice and relax on his breaks, and while it
was not perfect, i had no problem playing it for him for an hour or so.

Here in the DMV, pre-owned Bravo's are occasionally found at reasonable
prices, and many club members on a budget have snapped them up
and are having good results.. Joe has made a few spot repairs for
some members but no big issues reported.

It is an easy thing for many of us, who have a clue about repair and
can pop a bellows off for a look see, to find used old accordions that
are still in decent condition, but many student level and amateur/
casual players are simply on a budget, and trying to get a reasonable
value for their money at low risk. This is why the $2000 price point
is a target for Hohner and the Bravo line, available literally everywhere
no-need to "Be" a Hohner dealer or even an accordion shop to carry them
and sell them.

it's not like the accordion industry has any moral high ground anymore..
hell one recent poster actually thought there was an E. Soprani factory
somewhere on earth.. and when Dallape closed it's doors, the Scion took
Roland's money for the right to associate their new model with the Dallape name
and legend.. the deliberate dis-information that comes out of Germany and
Italy on a continuing basis.. the shadow and innuendo marketing..

how does a casual player on a budget stand a chance ?

and how many brands have gone bankrupt in this century and exited
existence leaving pre-paid customers holding the bag ?

Hi Ventura
I don't know if it's a reaction to some of the criticism of the Bravo range but I was sent this screenshot.

My silent key is perfectly tuned so perhaps the quality control was a factor and no company builds an accordion just for the fun of it.

It's all about making money so reacting to criticism is in everyone's interest.

 

[JKJ]

The one thing I am sure about is that China builds both very good and very bad products depending on price point,so writing off all products from that country would just be silly without actually trying them

I know of an example of a difference between good and bad products even made at the same factory in China - machining tools.

Some years ago I bought a small metal-turning lathe from Little Machine Shop in California. From appearance and advertised specs it was identical to a lathe sold for MUCH less from importers like Harbor Freight. In fact, LMS told me they were made at the same factory in China, the difference is they build the LMS tools to LMS specifications including more precise tolerances and better “fit and finish”, inside and out.

What I got was high quality and has worked flawlessly for nearly 10 years now.

As a comparison, a friend bought the (much) cheaper version of the same lathe. This guy has a lifetime of experience with precision machining and has a machine shop in his house. He said before using the lathe he did what he always does with all cheap Chinese machine tools - he disassembled it completely and reworked every part, deburring, chamfering, cleaning, polishing, then lubricating and adjusting while reassembling. I think he even replaced bearings with brands he trusted.

He said without all this the cheap machines were, in his experience, ”junk” and wouldn’t hold up over time.

So it’s easy for me to imagine a similar situation with other things made in China. (Again, I have no direct experience with accordions made in China, Hohner or otherwise.)

JKJ

 

[debra]

I know of an example of a difference between good and bad products even made at the same factory in China - machining tools.

...

So it’s easy for me to imagine a similar situation with other things made in China. (Again, I have no direct experience with accordions made in China, Hohner or otherwise.)

JKJ

Well, Hohner supposedly moved all the equipment they used in Germany to build (the lower end) accordions to China to use in the new factory. Of course that doesn't mean that this equipment is still being used today (if it ever was) or whether the Chinese workers were sufficiently trained to use the equipment.
(In a different post I read that when Excelsior stopped production in the USA they shipped all the equipment to Italy, to where the new Excelsior accordions would be built and I read that the equipment was never used there.)

 

[dak]

As a comparison, a friend bought the (much) cheaper version of the same lathe. This guy has a lifetime of experience with precision machining and has a machine shop in his house. He said before using the lathe he did what he always does with all cheap Chinese machine tools - he disassembled it completely and reworked every part, deburring, chamfering, cleaning, polishing, then lubricating and adjusting while reassembling. I think he even replaced bearings with brands he trusted.

He said without all this the cheap machines were, in his experience, ”junk” and wouldn’t hold up over time.

So it’s easy for me to imagine a similar situation with other things made in China. (Again, I have no direct experience with accordions made in China, Hohner or otherwise.)

You can't get a properly voiced and tuned instrument by precisely making and assembling each part according to specs and blueprints and assembly instructions. And industry spionage will not get you anywhere either. This is to a large degree a matter of skills that take time and effort to transfer. Or, of course, the willingness to break with precedent and develop new, better industrialisable processes for achieving similar end goals.

But accordions are a conservative market. Look where innovations like aluminum frames (Hohner), plastic molds for the case (Harmona), non-wooden internals ended up. For some reason, it was easier to revolutionize watchmaking.

 

[Plinky]

Well, I appreciate my instrument for sounding amazing in the hands of a third-class hack. Pretty enlightening to swap instruments with quality players and see how both are surprised at how much worse they end up.

Hi dak I think we are from a very different time place ,my first acoustic guitar was a Harmony birch ply ,it had a baseball bat neck and broom handles for strings and the action at the 12th you put your little finger under
And I bought a copy of the legend Bert Weedon's Play In A Day.

I think it would probably have deterred many, but I played that thing all hours and still remember the excitement of my first “no buzzing bar” chord.
It certainly built up my finger /wrist strength and muscle memory but would I have benefited more from a well set quality instrument?
I don't really know but playing it would certainly weed out the feckless

I think the Bravo is considerably easier to play than the other Chinese box I played but I'm the type that would probably persevere.
And providing everything works and in tune I,m not really qualified to appreciate the nuances of tone etc
I play with a classical guitarist and thought I could comp a few chords for him to play over “horrible”was his response ! I said which one he said all accordions sound horrible.

 

[debra]

...
I think the Bravo is considerably easier to play than the other Chinese box I played but I'm the type that would probably persevere.
And providing everything works and in tune I,m not really qualified to appreciate the nuances of tone etc
I play with a classical guitarist and thought I could comp a few chords for him to play over “horrible”was his response ! I said which one he said all accordions sound horrible.

The Chinese Hohners are miles better than other Chinese accordions in terms of how the keyboard works. I have tried some Chinese boxes where different keys required different amount of force to press them, and especially the black keys (on a PA) all required significantly more force than the white keys. You can almost tell the difference between how long each Chinese factory has been in the business by how good or bad the feel of the keyboards is. The Amica Forte my friend bought a few months ago is quite usable, the keyboard action is fine, and it took three months for the accordion to go enough out of tune that it is starting to bother me (but that means it will likely take 10 years before it will bother my friend).
The main thing I don't like about it is how it sounds. The lower notes are reasonably mellow and the higher notes have a very sharp tone, much worse than with a Russian bayan (there also the high notes are quite sharp and the low notes quite mellow). I cannot say anything about durability of this Amica yet as it is still new. It may take much more time for the springs to break for instance...

 

[Plinky]

I know of an example of a difference between good and bad products even made at the same factory in China - machining tools.

Some years ago I bought a small metal-turning lathe from Little Machine Shop in California. From appearance and advertised specs it was identical to a lathe sold for MUCH less from importers like Harbor Freight. In fact, LMS told me they were made at the same factory in China, the difference is they build the LMS tools to LMS specifications including more precise tolerances and better “fit and finish”, inside and out.

What I got was high quality and has worked flawlessly for nearly 10 years now.

As a comparison, a friend bought the (much) cheaper version of the same lathe. This guy has a lifetime of experience with precision machining and has a machine shop in his house. He said before using the lathe he did what he always does with all cheap Chinese machine tools - he disassembled it completely and reworked every part, deburring, chamfering, cleaning, polishing, then lubricating and adjusting while reassembling. I think he even replaced bearings with brands he trusted.

He said without all this the cheap machines were, in his experience, ”junk” and wouldn’t hold up over time.

So it’s easy for me to imagine a similar situation with other things made in China. (Again, I have no direct experience with accordions made in China, Hohner or otherwise.)

JKJ

Hi JKJ, I think that's a very good point and I suppose only time will tell how well the box holds up and how robust the components are.

I did ask the chap that played mine what he thought and he thought the box well built and certainly played well but was designed primarily for beginners so more about learning the buttons, keys,bellows technique and the negative seemed to be the compromised reed quality?

I did wonder as the box is intended for beginners that may push the reeds
They were somehow designed for a little abuse thus compromising sound quality?
He did say it would be interesting to have a quality set ,to see how it sounds.

 

[dak]

Hi dak I think we are from a very different time place ,my first acoustic guitar was a Harmony birch ply ,it had a baseball bat neck and broom handles for strings and the action at the 12th you put your little finger under
And I bought a copy of the legend Bert Weedon's Play In A Day.

Time and place? My instrument is from 1960. And I certainly started with beginner books on either guitar or accordion.

I play with a classical guitarist and thought I could comp a few chords for him to play over “horrible”was his response ! I said which one he said all accordions sound horrible.

A guitar cannot correct intonation and has long sustain, particularly if it is supposed to play melody. Recorder played at easier levels is probably even worse when combined with accordion. And an accordion's tremolo registers are really mainly for solo or (in some folk styles) lead play. And when foregoing tremolo, an accordion's "pliability" of tone quite depends on the quality of the reed plates and their voicing.

With regard to rock/pop accordion, a good country to be looking at is Finland. Many other countries employ accordion more in a folk or folksy manner. Or classical/new classical, with very limited fan base.

Here is a Finnish Rock hillbillie cover band:

And here a Norwegian classic accordionist (Lena Rist-Larsen, sound only, I am afraid)

The former instrument is good but essentially standard. The instrument for the second video was special-made, so it is less likely to count as counterargument to "every accordion sounds bad".

 

[Plinky]

The Chinese Hohners are miles better than other Chinese accordions in terms of how the keyboard works. I have tried some Chinese boxes where different keys required different amount of force to press them, and especially the black keys (on a PA) all required significantly more force than the white keys. You can almost tell the difference between how long each Chinese factory has been in the business by how good or bad the feel of the keyboards is. The Amica Forte my friend bought a few months ago is quite usable, the keyboard action is fine, and it took three months for the accordion to go enough out of tune that it is starting to bother me (but that means it will likely take 10 years before it will bother my friend).
The main thing I don't like about it is how it sounds. The lower notes are reasonably mellow and the higher notes have a very sharp tone, much worse than with a Russian bayan (there also the high notes are quite sharp and the low notes quite mellow). I cannot say anything about durability of this Amica yet as it is still new. It may take much more time for the springs to break for instance...

Hi De Bra his criticism was the reeds (not the bass end) but the treble he thought them a good match in volume but “a bit nothing in tone”
As I posted I wonder if they are “I don't really know how to describe this” over built to compensated for ,shall we say a beginner's enthusiasmif such a thing can be done?
I dont think I,m discerning enough to evaluate the quality of the sound ,they speak quick and are in tune ,but in my practice tuning I filed reeds that did both but lost it “something”I filed it away

 

[debra]

Hi De Bra his criticism was the reeds (not the bass end) but the treble he thought them a good match in volume but “a bit nothing in tone”
As I posted I wonder if they are “I don't really know how to describe this” over built to compensated for ,shall we say a beginner's enthusiasmif such a thing can be done?
I dont think I,m discerning enough to evaluate the quality of the sound ,they speak quick and are in tune ,but in my practice tuning I filed reeds that did both but lost it “something”I filed it away

For the price of the Amica Forte IV 120 I'd say this is not intended as a beginner's accordion. I have not yet looked inside but I'd be very surprised if it had chinese reeds. I know Hohner tries to make as much profit as possible (like all large companies do, nothing Hohner-specific) but I doubt they cut corners that much. I will probably just have machine reeds but hopefully at least Italian (or Czech). I will not likely open it up to check until the mandatory two year European warranty runs out.

 

[dak]

Hi De Bra his criticism was the reeds (not the bass end) but the treble he thought them a good match in volume but “a bit nothing in tone”
As I posted I wonder if they are “I don't really know how to describe this” over built to compensated for ,shall we say a beginner's enthusiasmif such a thing can be done?
I dont think I,m discerning enough to evaluate the quality of the sound ,they speak quick and are in tune ,but in my practice tuning I filed reeds that did both but lost it “something”I filed it away

There are two components to "a bit nothing in tone": player and instrument. To bring out the pliable tone quality of an instrument, you need to "share its breath". A back strap helps with that. You need to work with constantly controlled tension and be one with your instrument. And the instrument needs to respond to that. Good reeds will respond (and not just in volume but in timbre) to small differences even when registered as single reed (clarinet and bassoon mostly; reeds in the piccolo register tend to be less performative). You usually get a stronger pliability of tone with multiple-reed registrations (but mainly avoiding tremolo registrations which tend to be quite unsubtle).

A secondary art form is articulation: a well-shaped leggiero does a lot for having a "brilliant" shape of individual notes in a run, with a slightly pressed onset due to the accumulation of pressure while pallets were still closed. But that's more for lead play than accompaniment.

 

[Plinky]

Time and place? My instrument is from 1960. And I certainly started with beginner books on either guitar or accordion.



The former instrument is good but essentially standard. The instrument for the second video was special-made, so it is less likely to count as counterargument to "every accordion sounds bad".

Hi dak personally I've always loved the sound of accordions,melodeons,harmonicas but I certainly don't think that's universal.
I think it's very much a love or hate thing and a cat that will sit on you lap at the piano or cuddle up when playing the guitar will run off if i just take a melodeon out of its case,but could be my playing


“My Hohner jazz Chromatic pictured”on top of my Kawia Piano now I think the jazz in made in Germany and the piano Japan but is that assembled or entirely built ?
Note the ingenious pieces of masking tape,denoting the range on my accordions

 

[dak]

Hi dak personally I've always loved the sound of accordions,melodeons,harmonicas but I certainly don't think that's universal.
I think it's very much a love or hate thing and a cat that will sit on you lap at the piano or cuddle up when playing the guitar will run off if i just take a melodeon out of its case,but could be my playing


“My Hohner jazz Chromatic pictured”on top of my Kawia Piano now I think the jazz in made in Germany and the piano Japan but is that assembled or entirely built ?
Note the ingenious pieces of masking tape,denoting the range on my accordions

Well, you'd need to take a step back for seeing the masking tape for essentially any accordion in my possession. Including the toy-size Amati III M (which has 34 buttons after all).