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What determines a better sounding box?

I'd suggest to try whether using "Ignore" on the mouse-over of people you feel are making this forum unenjoyable for you for whatever reason improves the experience for you to a degree where you think it worth visiting. It is often just few persons that leave a bad taste in your mouth.

All the best
Have I missed something?

lively discourse and throwing around ideas is the path to knowledge and innovation

Anything that's important is inevitably going to have differences of opinion

And people are very passionate about musical instruments,

It all seems to me to be rather good humoured and innocuous

I quite like Ventura,s rants :)
 
yep.. i rant

my personal feelings are often not important, but the conclusions
can be.. like i had been avoiding commenting in this thread because
everyone kind of knows where i stand, but the goodbye guy was more
self-righteous in his opinions than the people he was grouching about, AND
the e. Soprani pontification was the last straw..
(hey dude.. don't let the saloon door hit'cha in the ass on your way out)

just like some producers can hear a few bars in the Studio and tell
the band, damn Joan, you have a Hit on your hands.. everyone gonna
put another dime in the jukebox after they hear this..
well as soon as i touch an accordion and start playing, i almost
immediately know if it is up to snuff.. i played a few bars and
handed the guy a $1000 for that quint in less than a minit.. the
reeds alone were worth that
FOR ME..
or if it is best just put something down gently without a negative comment but
with a generous offer to pay for a nice but inexpensive headstone

remember that hohner that turned on his master ! a cautionary tale !

now some people could probably make a living off of my discards.. our
friend in Georgia seems to be able to make ANYTHING playable again..

aren't there places and things you wouldn't be caught dead in/with ?
but that are nevertheless popular with many others
(Monte Carlo and Vegas come to mind.. i don't have a gambling
bone in my body, nor have i ever coveted a Rolls Royce or Cadillac lifestyle..
even just for a vacation.) hell i have never had a Pizza delivered.. are my
legs broken ? can't i go get it myself ? why would i need a servant to bring
me a damn Pizza anyways ? who inna hell wants to BE a servant ? not me,
and not gonna cause anyone to be one neither because i maybe felt lazy today
for a few seconds..

rant

just sayin'
 
yep.. i rant

my personal feelings are often not important, but the conclusions
can be.. like i had been avoiding commenting in this thread because
everyone kind of knows where i stand, but the goodbye guy was more
self-righteous in his opinions than the people he was grouching about, AND
the e. Soprani pontification was the last straw..
(hey dude.. don't let the saloon door hit'cha in the ass on your way out)

just like some producers can hear a few bars in the Studio and tell
the band, damn Joan, you have a Hit on your hands.. everyone gonna
put another dime in the jukebox after they hear this..
well as soon as i touch an accordion and start playing, i almost
immediately know if it is up to snuff.. i played a few bars and
handed the guy a $1000 for that quint in less than a minit.. the
reeds alone were worth that
FOR ME..
or if it is best just put something down gently without a negative comment but
with a generous offer to pay for a nice but inexpensive headstone

remember that hohner that turned on his master ! a cautionary tale !

now some people could probably make a living off of my discards.. our
friend in Georgia seems to be able to make ANYTHING playable again..

aren't there places and things you wouldn't be caught dead in/with ?
but that are nevertheless popular with many others
(Monte Carlo and Vegas come to mind.. i don't have a gambling
bone in my body, nor have i ever coveted a Rolls Royce or Cadillac lifestyle..
even just for a vacation.) hell i have never had a Pizza delivered.. are my
legs broken ? can't i go get it myself ? why would i need a servant to bring
me a damn Pizza anyways ? who inna hell wants to BE a servant ? not me,
and not gonna cause anyone to be one neither because i maybe felt lazy today
for a few seconds..

rant

just sayin'
An associate of mine makes money “door dashing.” He reports that many of the “deliverees” use the service due to the desire not to drive on a late (or not so late) evening. Yes, dear Ventura, alcohol is a factor here, making it safer on the roads for the rest of us. ….just sayin!
 
Just going to put one last comment into the thread because I think it's important for other novices out there to know so they don't feel like the entry point is too highly priced.

I bought a new "Chinese" e soprani 48 bass accordion and it plays and sounds really good, even compared to my other "expensive" Italian box and other nicer boxes I have played.

I'll just leave it at that and take the whole conversation as a lesson to why I've stayed away from having an online presence for years. Strong opinions everywhere including my own, but it leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth. Sorry for jumping in, getting out of the pool now.
The big difference is that they’re "made in China". A lot of people just throw stuff away as soon as they hear that. I get it — what’s good or bad really depends on how you feel about it. It’s all pretty subjective. What one person loves, another might hate. But if we could drop those biases, we might see things differently.

This reminds me of that experiment where some people are super sure they can tell Pepsi from Coke, but when they’re blindfolded, they can’t tell them apart at all. So really, it’s not about the product itself; it’s about getting rid of those labels and preconceived notions.
 
...
This reminds me of that experiment where some people are super sure they can tell Pepsi from Coke, but when they’re blindfolded, they can’t tell them apart at all. So really, it’s not about the product itself; it’s about getting rid of those labels and preconceived notions.
There's a great aid for this issue, regarding accordions: it's called "audio only". We have a classical music radio station (without announcements, but with an on-line playlist). When (not often though) something with accordion comes along it takes me just a few seconds to guess whether the player has a Bugari or Pigini (and virtually nobody who appears on that radio station plays anything other than these two). The playlist will say who's playing and then it's easy to find out what accordion they play. So far my hit rate is 100%. I'm not claiming I can distinguish between many more accordions, but high-end Bugari and Pigini each have a clearly distinct sound.
 
This reminds me of that experiment where some people are super sure they can tell Pepsi from Coke, but when they’re blindfolded, they can’t tell them apart at all. So really, it’s not about the product itself; it’s about getting rid of those labels and preconceived notions.
Housemate of mine had an intern who refused any Cola variant other than Coca Cola. She was given the blind testing treatment but had a 100% hit rate without half trying. Sometimes you have to accept that some people can discriminate a lot more than others, and then they still need to be bothered by the difference before you need to make accommodations.

Over here in Germany, standard milk uses a fat percentage of 3.5% while organic milk is done with 3.8%. The reason obviously is so that people can "taste the difference organic milk makes". Because trying to taste, say, pesticide residues in the grass types consumed by the cows (that may even have been fed hay) is kind of hopeless. So they change something that has a fighting chance to be distinguishable by taste.
 
Housemate of mine had an intern who refused any Cola variant other than Coca Cola. She was given the blind testing treatment but had a 100% hit rate without half trying. Sometimes you have to accept that some people can discriminate a lot more than others, and then they still need to be bothered by the difference before you need to make accommodations.

Over here in Germany, standard milk uses a fat percentage of 3.5% while organic milk is done with 3.8%. The reason obviously is so that people can "taste the difference organic milk makes". Because trying to taste, say, pesticide residues in the grass types consumed by the cows (that may even have been fed hay) is kind of hopeless. So they change something that has a fighting chance to be distinguishable by taste.
There's a great aid for this issue, regarding accordions: it's called "audio only". We have a classical music radio station (without announcements, but with an on-line playlist). When (not often though) something with accordion comes along it takes me just a few seconds to guess whether the player has a Bugari or Pigini (and virtually nobody who appears on that radio station plays anything other than these two). The playlist will say who's playing and then it's easy to find out what accordion they play. So far my hit rate is 100%. I'm not claiming I can distinguish between many more accordions, but high-end Bugari and Pigini each have a clearly distinct sound.
Seems a very interesting, but I really doubt, anyone want to blind test the accordion sound? I can upload some accordion 'video“ but hide video, so only the sound, so you can only listen to it and tell where it comes from. We can try it.
 
I can upload some accordion 'video“ but hide video, so only the sound, so you can only listen to it and tell where it comes from. We can try it.
Great suggestion, zdq!❤️

This reminds me of a double blind experiment where participants in an auditorium were asked to identify the Stradivarius among a selection of various violins being played live, behind a curtain onstage.
Interestingly, as I remember it, no one got it right!😄
 
Seems a very interesting, but I really doubt, anyone want to blind test the accordion sound? I can upload some accordion 'video“ but hide video, so only the sound, so you can only listen to it and tell where it comes from. We can try it.
Well... in general it won't work because there are many rather similarly sounding accordions. My "experiment" is just distinguishing the two most popular instruments (high end Bugari and Pigini) and that works, but if the Bugari were replaced by a high end Scandalli it might not work for instance. (I might mistake the Scandalli for a Bugari, not for a Pigini.)
 
Great suggestion, zdq!❤️

This reminds me of a double blind experiment where participants in an auditorium were asked to identify the Stradivarius among a selection of various violins being played live, behind a curtain onstage.
Interestingly, as I remember it, no one got it right!😄
It's kind of stupid because a "Stradivarius" is just an instrument built to high standards in a manufacture overseen by a particular master. But there is no magic fairy dust making an absolute difference to other instruments, and the various instruments sound different and indeed sell for different prices. Now if the participants would have been asked to identify a particular Stradivarius, or at least if the instrument they were asked to identify was known to be among the best built by Stradivarius for tonal reasons (there are some that are famous for being encrusted with inlays to a degree that makes you wonder how they can sound at all, let alone well). But recognizing an unspecific Stradivarius by sound alone played from behind a curtain is like asking an art specialist to make an expertise about the creator of a painting by looking at a photograph, or recognizing a star cook by the smell of his customers' farts.

In addition, part of a good instrument is that it opens pathways for the player. If you make that test after having each of the randomly assigned (of course highest-level) test players use their instrument exclusively for a few years first before the showdown, the differences between how much the players will bring out will be more relevant. If you reassign instruments randomly just before the test, it might be easier to identify the longtime Stradivarius player over the actual instrument.

Recognizing a "Stradivarius" by sound is not as much like recognizing a Hohner Morino model by sound as it is to recognize the maker of one of the hundreds of individual instruments Venanzio Morino built in his Geneva workshop before getting hauled to Trossingen. And even then there is more personal unity involved than with a "Stradivarius". Those instruments can be pretty reliably traced to Morino but not by only listening to them.
 
Well... in general it won't work because there are many rather similarly sounding accordions. My "experiment" is just distinguishing the two most popular instruments (high end Bugari and Pigini) and that works, but if the Bugari were replaced by a high end Scandalli it might not work for instance. (I might mistake the Scandalli for a Bugari, not for a Pigini.)

So, based on your point of view, apart from Bugari and Scandalli, you can't actually only use sound to distinguish the sound and origin of accordions?
 
It's kind of stupid because a "Stradivarius" is just an instrument built to high standards in a manufacture overseen by a particular master. But there is no magic fairy dust making an absolute difference to other instruments, and the various instruments sound different and indeed sell for different prices. Now if the participants would have been asked to identify a particular Stradivarius, or at least if the instrument they were asked to identify was known to be among the best built by Stradivarius for tonal reasons (there are some that are famous for being encrusted with inlays to a degree that makes you wonder how they can sound at all, let alone well). But recognizing an unspecific Stradivarius by sound alone played from behind a curtain is like asking an art specialist to make an expertise about the creator of a painting by looking at a photograph, or recognizing a star cook by the smell of his customers' farts.

In addition, part of a good instrument is that it opens pathways for the player. If you make that test after having each of the randomly assigned (of course highest-level) test players use their instrument exclusively for a few years first before the showdown, the differences between how much the players will bring out will be more relevant. If you reassign instruments randomly just before the test, it might be easier to identify the longtime Stradivarius player over the actual instrument.

Recognizing a "Stradivarius" by sound is not as much like recognizing a Hohner Morino model by sound as it is to recognize the maker of one of the hundreds of individual instruments Venanzio Morino built in his Geneva workshop before getting hauled to Trossingen. And even then there is more personal unity involved than with a "Stradivarius". Those instruments can be pretty reliably traced to Morino but not by only listening to them.
Ok, you added another factor to here, the player's familiarity. Let's try to let someone play with an accordion that he is familiar with, and then tell the difference between the different accordion sounds? Or we can make it simpler for him to listen to a few clips blindly and tell me which accordions sound "better" or "worse"? Can you do that?
 
So, based on your point of view, apart from Bugari and Scandalli, you can't actually only use sound to distinguish the sound and origin of accordions?
The sounds that I can clearly distinguish are Bugari versus Pigini, or rather, Pigini versus many others that sound somewhat alike (Bugari, Scandalli, Serenellini, etc.) There are other sounds that are quite unique too but it requires testing to distinguish them. The old Hohner Gola, Scandalli Super VI and Bell that were developed in collaboration have a very nice M in cassotto sound. The Morino comes somewhat close to that (and an early Morino N series accordion may sound just as good as a modern Gola). In a mix of sounds you don't easily notice the sound differences that are localized. Victoria also has a rather unique sound in their vintage design instrument (but less so with there conservatory convertor models). I can also recognize by ear the difference between a button accordion with 2+2 setup and a button accordion with a 3+3 setup (the numbers meaning number of reed blocks inside and outside of cassotto, and I can blindly tell the difference between a 3+3 one with B system versus C system, but that requires playing a chromatic scale slowly, on the single M in cassotto register.
There are many characteristic sound differences between accordions, but it would take a good training of the ear to learn to recognize each of these.
 
Ok, you added another factor to here, the player's familiarity. Let's try to let someone play with an accordion that he is familiar with, and then tell the difference between the different accordion sounds? Or we can make it simpler for him to listen to a few clips blindly and tell me which accordions sound "better" or "worse"? Can you do that?
Whether sound is "better" or "worse" is mainly a matter of taste and what you find important in the sound of an accordion. Some people do not like accordions with cassotto at all, and some others reject the sound of non-cassotto accordions almost immediately. Some people like accordions where in an MH register the H is less present and some people prefer the H to be more clearly heard in the mix. Some people prefer a very strong cassotto effect, creating what I would call a "dark" tone, and some prefer a lesser cassotto (like for instance in the Morino M series) because then the MM register sounds more balanced. Everything comes down to preference. Some people love the very sharp tone of a Hohner Atlantic IV N and others find it painful to the ears. Some people love the sound of a very wet MMM like often found on Accordiola accordions and others get a headache quickly after listening to that sound...
 
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