What determines a better sounding box?

[Plinky]

I have always been somewhat dubious about “subjectivity”tone timbre projection etc
Unless we are talking like for like ,and one factors, in intention of build.

As the general principal.one builds for longevity,but as lightly as possible for vibration resonance,and projection,and using materials that will facilitate that

An example would be something like two virtually identical (all solid wood)larrivee parlour guitars ,one strung with Phosphor bronze one 80/20 same gauges.one,s choice of sound would be subjective as Its based on what's most pleasing to the ear.
But if one were making the comparison between ,a 50s Harmony budget birch ply parlour guitar and a larrivee.
The build criteria for the Harmony ,was primarily cost ,so not using generally accepted tone Woods so ,vibration ,resonance etc were secondary.

I'm waffling on about this because accordions are very different and fascinating beasts.The reeds are little instruments in themselves,and come in a variety of qualities.

The Heart and Soul of an Accordion

The Heart and Soul of an Accordion - by Joe Petosa ~ a perspective from an accordion manufacturer and reed maker ~ by Joe Petosa Sr. ~ petosa accordions Many people have an interest in accordion reeds. Reeds can be referred to as the heart and soul of an accordion; however there are other...

petosa.com

So how they are housed determines “quality”? of the sound ,and the quality of the reeds.
Most seem to be built with ply, so it's not the inherent tonal quality of the material.
Plywood is strong and light but actually inhibits vibration ,because of the cross laminations ,so rigidity would be seen an important factor?

“The Cassotto "tone chamber". The reeds that are placed in this chamber have a far more mellow and rich tone”​

So enclosed in say a mahogany box,the higher frequencies are “absorbed”? by the mahogany and the lower frequencies are effectively vibrating the mahogany” like a soundboard”?

So the thickness of the mahogany,is important?and would grain orientation be important?
And reed block orientation is obviously a factor.

Sorry I,m just trying to get my head round it all,as I'm working on a little project at the moment and the more you learn about something the better the outcome.

Accordions seem to either invoke great passion or they are hated
But providing it's in tune and not incredibly wet,I sort of like the sound of all of them.

In conclusion “ignoring the mechanicals”the overriding factor is reed quality?
Say fitting a set of quality handmade reeds in my little Bell Hohner “in theory”
Would it be “better”an improvement? And although the box itself does have an impact on the sound,and I'm not factoring in how well they are tuned ,setup etc
Better reeds make for a better box?

 

[dunlustin]

FWIW:
During the diatonic revival in France in the 70s, a number of players took their Hohner 2-rows off to Italy to have better reeds installed.
and
I took my Corona II to the Hohner workshop to be 'dried out.'
The tech' (A Mr Hohner - but no relative) had moved there from Germany in 1948 so he knew a thing or two.
He said that the reed quality limited how much he could do. He showed me a new model from Hohner to make his point.
I'm guessing it was their answer to Italian Diatonics. It was a cut above Hohner's other offerings at the time but disappeared without trace. Why didn't I buy one? Children's shoes!
From memory it might have been called Atlantic? (PS I know about the PA but no link)

So -- Better reeds make for a better box?
You wouldn't be the first to say so.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Some Harmony birch guitars are loved now for their light construction, ladder bracing, and the birch itself--sometimes wonderful for ragtime, raggy alternating-bass blues, and other oldtime fingerpicking styles. Same with some of these old Hohners. Just sayin'.

But I know some of the Irish trad players using the small vintage bisonoric two-row Hohner button boxes have had the reeds swapped out for Italian handmade, though not in all cases.

 

[Plinky]

Some Harmony birch guitars are loved now for their light construction, ladder bracing, and the birch itself--sometimes wonderful for ragtime, raggy alternating-bass blues, and other oldtime fingerpicking styles. Same with some of these old Hohners. Just sayin'.

But I know some of the Irish trad players using the small vintage bisonoric two-row Hohner button boxes have had the reeds swapped out for Italian handmade, though not in all cases.

Some Harmony birch guitars are loved now for their light construction, ladder bracing, and the birch itself--sometimes wonderful for ragtime, raggy alternating-bass blues, and other oldtime fingerpicking styles. Same with some of these old Hohners. Just sayin'.

But I know some of the Irish trad players using the small vintage bisonoric two-row Hohner button boxes have had the reeds swapped out for Italian handmade, though not in all cases.

Hi ouijaboard sorry I haven't explained myself clearly,
“yes” instrument like budget plywood Harmony and Teisco electric,s have achieved a sort of cult status “I know I,ve sold enough of them”lol
It's like Maccaferri plastic ukes.

“But If you accept the premise ,that solid wood acoustic guitars, have a superior tone, resonate ,vibrate project and that's optimal in an acoustic instrument”

It wasn't meant to be a critique of,the cheap and cheerful instruments
I was trying to find an example of common ground for the accordion.
Not based on cult status ,but more acoustically optimal.

Its all a little “back to front” for me ,as the reed is effectively an instrument..

So if one had just been offered a very very cheap “basket case” vintage Hohner student 48
And both the treble and the bass mechanisms are good and free but bellows are knackered ,and horrible mould inside the body.

The new bravo bellows are bigger and have more folds,are easy to buy so I would build the new box around them,
And the added advantage is more room in the treble end ,dump the coupler mechanism,and you could orientate the reed blocks differently

So it's really what to construct the box out of?and reeds? as some very expensive instruments do seem to be solid wood.

Or incredibly strong land light weight ply

Birch Plywood - Aircraft Plywood and Timber

Buy Birch Plywood from Swindon Aircraft Timber Company who supply materials for building your own aircraft, balsa wood, plywood, Okoume plywood, Birch Plywood, Spruce and Douglas Fir, permagrit tools etc. We are located in Swindon, Wiltshire,UK , Tel +44 (0) 1793 791517

www.aircraftplywoodandtimber.co.uk

As to reeds my mate suggested?

https://www.harmonikas.cz/en/product/a-mano-nastrino-i-class/

 

[Plinky]

FWIW:
During the diatonic revival in France in the 70s, a number of players took their Hohner 2-rows off to Italy to have better reeds installed.
and
I took my Corona II to the Hohner workshop to be 'dried out.'
The tech' (A Mr Hohner - but no relative) had moved there from Germany in 1948 so he knew a thing or two.
He said that the reed quality limited how much he could do. He showed me a new model from Hohner to make his point.
I'm guessing it was their answer to Italian Diatonics. It was a cut above Hohner's other offerings at the time but disappeared without trace. Why didn't I buy one? Children's shoes!
From memory it might have been called Atlantic? (PS I know about the PA but no link)

So -- Better reeds make for a better box?
You wouldn't be the first to say so.

Thanks thats really useful ,no point in making a clone of my Hohners.and I really like the idea of having an experimental box
It's a little cold here at the moment,but could be a fun summer Project

 

[dak]

Reeds are about response, dynamics, and overtones. Ask an oboe player how much a good oboe's sound is determined by the reed. It isn't really. Reeds are essential squawky things. But the tone is determined by the shape of the air paths, like the vowels you speak are not determined by what the voicebox does but by the shape of the air path behind it.

In an accordion, like you observed, the wood as such is inert and does not relevantly contribute to the sound. But the air paths do. Reed chambers are particularly important: the best material for the bulk of it is light, the foot should be hard and unwarping, and higher quality blocks are sanded and/or lacquered to provide smooth sound paths. If you are really obsessive, you can construct it from several pieces such that the air path runs comparatively in direction of the wood fibers, making for smooth and firm boundaries to the airpath.

There is a lot one can do to keep mechanics from blocking the airways, or worse, from buzzing sympathetically. The bass mechanics of higher quality instruments tend to have significant amounts of dampening elements and tolerances not leaving a lot of leeway for free movement.

High quality reeds have high overtone content that contribute to a shrill sound quality. Here the shape of the airways has a lot of harmonic material to work with and can sculpt a particular sound from a rich spectrum.

There is some trend to sell cassotto accordions with cheap reeds with a large markup to customers wanting the feeling of playing a high-end instrument at tolerable pricing. That is comparatively nonsensical since the high overtone content that warrants a cassotto to tame and shape isn't there. You'll get more of a muffled than an amicable sound out of that combination.

 

[Walker]

Fascinating thread...

There were also some very interesting threads on similar subjects by an Accordionists Forum member @snavoyosky, who has a lifetime of experience in such a field of interest. Maybe there are special insights to uncover there in his threads also.

For example:

Accordion casing's effect on sound

Ginny asked > As far as the vibrant qualities of the wood---much less with the application of celluloid. Wood housing helped catalytically in the past (dependent on construction methods) until it was decided to cover the wood to protect it from damages. Subsequently, designs of housings...

www.accordionists.info

There are some lovely jewels of information in threads like "The Giulietti Sound"

The Giulietti Sound

As promised to Dingo, FFingers and Here is the first installment of thir requested accordion brand sounds Years ago when I was in Florida I received an email from a fellow from the Netherlands by the name of Sander Neijnens who spent considerable time searching for me from time to...

www.accordionists.info

I think this paragraph from the same Giulietti thread is quite illuminating...
​

The Giulietti sound is mainly due to the quality of the reeds. The reeds made under the watchful eye of Elio Guidobaldi were excellent. But the reeds for the cheaper models were still high quality. The reeds made by Elio Guidobaldi have a ‘flute’ sound and that was done by reed design. Technology will never produce reeds like these, because machinery can’t see and think, nor have that feel for adjusting to conditions. It’s things like this that make the Giulietti accordions what they are. Much love went into those instruments and they became the Cadillac of the industry.​

Ah, to have voices like "flutes"... surely a gold standard for the accordion. ​

 

[OuijaBoard]

I believe I was told years ago that the Hohner "Junior 48" model had a plastic chassis. They came in a few bright colors including red, yellow, blue, and even pink.

 

[nou]

Based on my experience in building concertinas, in a rough order of influence on the timbre: slot&tongue shape (e.g. trapezoid tongue with straight slot accordion reed vs straight tongue with tapered slot concertina reed), frame/shoe metal choice, single plate vs common plate, reed quality (tongue metal stiffness, slot tolerances and tongue profile), chamber orientation and dimensions, incuding padhole dimensions and pad overlap, voicing, valve stiffness and material. Those define the starting point of the spectrum and you can only shape this later to a point - no matter how hard you try you won’t make a box with alluminum accordion reeds sound like one with traditional concertina brass reeds for example. Then comes the number of bounces, any and all chambers along the way (not only casotto, but also action chamber and openness of the grille fretwork), and surface texture and stiffness of the material from which the sound bounces. All secondary vibrations of the mechanism are a different beast, as those are mostly quality considerations and are pretty much proportional to the amount of unfelted joints/contact points.

Now many of those parameters are coupled, many of them affect lower reeds more than mid or high reeds etc.

 

[Plinky]

There is some trend to sell cassotto accordions with cheap reeds with a large markup to customers wanting the feeling of playing a high-end instrument at tolerable pricing. That is comparatively nonsensical since the high overtone content that warrants a cassotto to tame and shape isn't there. You'll get more of a muffled than an amicable sound out of that combination.

Dak that's great ,many thanks got the “cassotto” in my head
and it fits perfectly with what I was going to ask next

Firstly this is all completely beyond me.

I have a friend that's a film DIT sound engineer,and it was he that suggested experimenting with adjustable reed chambers.

He works with

computational fluid dynamics,

From what I can gather,one can manipulate computer model ,volumes and shapes so a reed chamber in the software
it will determine the most efficient use of the airflow, now I don't know in what way.
But not having any sharp corners seems to make sense
He has a reed block and reeds ,as I told him the reed needs to swing along with the valves

One of my concerns was that some wood reed block chambers seem roughly finished
So I could 3D print ,effectively in a Kit because of the face printing,to just glue together as I assumed having as much smooth surface as possible was the best option for airflow,
But he was also prattling on about golf balls and the humpback whales, and how the air flows over dimples?

I have just emailed him and asked him for a layman's explanation.

 

[dak]

One of my concerns was that some wood reed block chambers seem roughly finished
So I could 3D print ,effectively in a Kit because of the face printing,to just glue together as I assumed having as much smooth surface as possible was the best option for airflow,
But he was also prattling on about golf balls and the humpback whales, and how the air flows over dimples?

That's for using artificially created eddies as "ball bearings" for air flow to reduce laminar flow surface losses. The problem in an instrument I see is that we already have the sound pressure variations disrupting laminar flow problems so the eddies don't achieve much more than messing with the sound without achieving a tangible goal.

I have just emailed him and asked him for a layman's explanation.

It would probably be a good idea to make extensive comparisons before going there to make sure that one achieves a desirable objective with such measures.

 

[Plinky]

That's for using artificially created eddies as "ball bearings" for air flow to reduce laminar flow surface losses. The problem in an instrument I see is that we already have the sound pressure variations disrupting laminar flow problems so the eddies don't achieve much more than messing with the sound without achieving a tangible goal.

It would probably be a good idea to make extensive comparisons before going there to make sure that one achieves a desirable objective with such measures.

dak as I say I know nothing about this stuff,I have numerous reed blocks from old /new PA,s Melodeons etc
Had a basket case old Italian PA,or at least it said made in Italy on it ,it might have been from the Czech Republic

But the reed blocks were nicely finished “lots of slopey bits” and the zinc reeds were great so I thought that was the best one for him to play with,

And I can't seem to see a formula from the measurements I,ve taken
”is there a formula for reed chamber size”
I'm assuming in some part its determined by the reed ,but wood reed blocks slope in a way that would make it “less than perfect”
So I will print the boxes to match the reeds as they will have a rebate to slot into.

The great thing about all this computer stuff .you don't actually have to build anything ,reed block building is a pain
So my non-technical way of looking at is,let him fanny around with flows ,try say 5 different models and print a reed block for 5 reeds all the same pitch ,bung it in and see what happens.

 

[Plinky]

Now many of those parameters are coupled, many of them affect lower reeds more than mid or high reeds etc.

Hi nou fascinating but sorry it's all well beyond me,He can mess around with flows models etc ,something like 5 reeds all the same pitch ,bung it in and see what the difference is , if I had to actually build the reed blocks I wouldn't consider it "horrible job" but we already have a design in a program ,the Hohner vm reed blocks,I don't do the modelling ,but for him it's very easy to just manipulate it.

 

[Plinky]

I believe I was told years ago that the Hohner "Junior 48" model had a plastic chassis. They came in a few bright colors including red, yellow, blue, and even pink.

Cool box may have to get one for my collection,
this is going to sound very silly,and every bit of evidence I've read is to the contrary ,but something lurking in the recess of in my head says “the solid wood (cherry)”has an impact on the soundif I could get a box sounding anything like this.

 

[Plinky]

to have voices like "flutes"... surely a gold standard for the accordion. ​

Thanks walker they do sound lovely and warm,i fear my ears may have been assaulted by melodeons,


But I think i,m drawn more to the Castagnari "throaty shimmering" tone

 

[dak]

Cool box may have to get one for my collection,
this is going to sound very silly,and every bit of evidence I've read is to the contrary ,but something lurking in the recess of in my head says “the solid wood (cherry)”has an impact on the sound

I think there have been extensive experiments before deciding "not so". You have, however, different characteristics for longterm stability and the ability to do corrections and the interactions with wax (and, well, forget about nailing or screwing reed plates on) and the temperature stability.

A high-end reed block made by Morino or under his eye consists of several different wood types chosen for their particular properties in connection with the function they serve in the reed block. Well-aged and properly stored wood will hold up centuries even under tension (or nobody would want a Stradivarius violin) and you can still shave and/or reset it using appropriate techniques.

A plastic reed block is one piece. You cannot do a whole lot when it develops a problem.

 

[nou]

Hi nou fascinating but sorry it's all well beyond me,He can mess around with flows models etc ,something like 5 reeds all the same pitch ,bung it in and see what the difference is , if I had to actually build the reed blocks I wouldn't consider it "horrible job" but we already have a design in a program ,the Hohner vm reed blocks,I don't do the modelling ,but for him it's very easy to just manipulate it.

So, focussing on your project, I can recommend Harmonicas.cz, I've built concertinas around their DIX range. The one advantage of their DIX range, is that they can make them in three different frame metals - alluminum, brass and zinc - each having a distinct flavour, but all having the same frame sizes. So, you could order samples from them, listen to the sound "in place" and decide what sounds best for you. You could even build yourself spare reedblocks and be able to swap sound. Any other considerations, like wood for the box or various geometries come only after this step, and impact the resulting sound less.

 

[Plinky]

hold up centuries even under tension (or nobody would want a Stradivarius violin) and you can still shave and/or reset it using appropriate techniques.

A plastic reed block is one piece. You cannot do a whole lot when it develops a problem.

Hi dak this is just a humble summer project,I'm really not trying to compete with accordion making artisans,and i,m not sure it needs to last hundreds of years I'm in my mid 60s,as to problems ,one of the great advantages of 3D printing is ,you just print another one.

A friend plays the uilleann pipes,and this is a printed chanter ,it's the rough first print ,and it needed a tweek
pipe players are notoriously protective of their instruments,with a work it came out great.
It was for his daughter so she could practise the fingering
So this one is just another piece of discarded plastic ,that eventually will kill us all.

 

[Plinky]

So, focussing on your project, I can recommend Harmonicas.cz, I've built concertinas around their DIX range. The one advantage of their DIX range, is that they can make them in three different frame metals - alluminum, brass and zinc - each having a distinct flavour, but all having the same frame sizes. So, you could order samples from them, listen to the sound "in place" and decide what sounds best for you. You could even build yourself spare reedblocks and be able to swap sound. Any other considerations, like wood for the box or various geometries come only after this step, and impact the resulting sound less.

Thanks nou thats good to know,my friends a great player ,but he absolutely thumps the life out of everything,so tone might not be his strong point

 

[Plinky]

Thanks Plinky for the videos. I do like the sound of the Magica 3 and it's quite different from the Classic 127. I guess at the end of the day "better sounding box" comes down to personal preference... Each has it's own place, or as the saying goes - there's a lid for every pot.

Hi Walker I think the trouble with all musical instruments, if they are really distinctive and beautifully voiced Like both the Giulietti and Castagnari I want both my old Hohners have a wonderful folky sound ,but the new Bravo ,the more I play it.....its "vanilla"it's a good compromise for a student ,but it just doesn't have its own voice a generic accordion.​