Thoughts on Moschino Free bass?

[saundersbp]

Given a good acoustic balance of instruments made today, there would likely be lots of fine musicians playing them if they were still being made. However, my experience tells me either C-system or B-system is a better choice. Also, if the Moschino or Kuehl keyboards were preferable to a C- or B-system, likely someone would have started making Moschino or Kuehl treble keyboards too.
Moschino is a 4-row keyboards with alternating columns so the fingering can be the same in all keys. The ‘stack’ is in major 3rds. The stack on a 3-row CBA (C- or B-system) is in minor 3rds. The latter feels much easier for constructing chords. The 3-row CBA has stood the test of time. If anyone want to learn freebass. I highly recommend C- or B-system, depending on what is most played where you happen to reside.

Very interesting, and what you say has experience behind it, great posting!

As far as daily playing times, don't take me there. II was obliged to do 12 hour days on the weekend and all non-school days and 8 hours a day MON-FRI (split in to 2 sessions, morning and evening), and still attend school. Holidays, birthdays or any special event were NO excuses and had to have 12 hours of accordion time completed.

I did that for **well** over a decade and it was one of the main reasons I burned out to the point of needing hospitalization and stopped for over 35 years. I started out with accordion lessons at 4 years of age and even then did 2 hours a day, 7 days a week as a CHILD by the 6 month mark of starting.

So sorry to read this Jerry, in all seriousness it's worthy of a Stephen King horror. I didn't know this part of your story and it's truly terrible that anyone subjected a child to this treatment.
I can't empathise at all - I was never pushed musically as a child and only ever played whatever I wanted because I enjoyed it - but I do truly sympathise!

 

[tcabot]

Also, if the Moschino or Kuehl keyboards were preferable to a C- or B-system, likely someone would have started making Moschino or Kuehl treble keyboards too.

With the accordion, left hand is strapped in and the thumb is extremely limited. Hand shifts are also difficult / harder than right.
Right hand is free to move and the thumb is very active. Makes no sense to put Moschino in the accordion treble to me.

Interestingly enough, in the bandonion world, the hands are equally limited/liberated (depends if you're an optimist or not ) and having a moschino-like system on both sides has been attempted (the instrument is called a "Chromatiphon").
I guess, the Kusserow system (Moschino-like in the Left, completely different right) was more popular because every system has pros and cons. So a chord/passage that is difficult to play on one, can be easy to play on the other, therefore offsetting some of the cons.

 

[Walker]

With the accordion, left hand is strapped in and the thumb is extremely limited. Hand shifts are also difficult / harder than right.
Right hand is free to move and the thumb is very active.

This is perhaps the weak link in the free bass accordion, the idea of parity between the hands is enticing, but the reality is somewhat different. Even many virtuoso players, who mainly play chromatic free bass, tend to do a lot less with the left hand than the right hand. The idea of having the same keyboard on the left hand and right hand is good in principle but sometimes treating two keyboards as equal (when in practice they are not) is a slight problem, but it may not be insurmountable...

The two musicians with the most impressive left hand techniques that I have seen is Oivind Farmen, who plays a Scandalli with chromatic free bass and extra stepping in the left side. This could be at least a partial solution to the restricted left hand. However, there is still significant hand movement in playing - which is fine if you have the technique to do it.


Also, Grayson Masefield, who plays Quint free bass has a frightening technique on the left hand.


However, I understand the Moschino system was designed to be more ergonomic that what went before it, so I'm sure there will be a lot of possibilities in it. More people need to learn to play it and maybe if they do then I'm sure there will be wonderful results obtained.

At the end of the day, what can be done with any accordion is down to the musicians ability. This talk about "best" systems is a bit premature, because I don't think there is any system yet that has got everything right. Try comparing a concert pianists left hand work with an accordionists - it's not even close. Piano is still miles ahead.​

 

[tcabot]

Piano lets you pick expression for every note.
I think the main free reed limitation is the fact that you have single shared expression for everything.
I've heard that somebody came up with a double-bellows free bass design decades ago in USSR, but it never took off.

The bando has very different timbres in LHS and RHS. I like it. I don't get why some people want to have equal tone in left & right. To me it's more fun to have two separate voices. But the volume imbalance between left & right is crippling.
What I really would like, is to have a sordina on each side of the bando (because there is a lot of scope for right & left swapping their roles for playing melody & chords)... The accordion can probably get away with just the bass side sordina, but two would be preferable.
I am surprised that, given just how simple the sordina tech is that it's not put on both sides on each box, free bass or not, by default.

 

[PhiliGol]

This is perhaps the weak link in the free bass accordion, the idea of parity between the hands is enticing, but the reality is somewhat different. Even many virtuoso players, who mainly play chromatic free bass, tend to do a lot less with the left hand than the right hand. The idea of having the same keyboard on the left hand and right hand is good in principle but sometimes treating two keyboards as equal (when in practice they are not) is a slight problem, but it may not be insurmountable...

The two musicians with the most impressive left hand techniques that I have seen is Oivind Farmen, who plays a Scandalli with chromatic free bass and extra stepping in the left side. This could be at least a partial solution to the restricted left hand. However, there is still significant hand movement in playing - which is fine if you have the technique to do it.


Also, Grayson Masefield, who plays Quint free bass has a frightening technique on the left hand.


However, I understand the Moschino system was designed to be more ergonomic that what went before it, so I'm sure there will be a lot of possibilities in it. More people need to learn to play it and maybe if they do then I'm sure there will be wonderful results obtained.

At the end of the day, what can be done with any accordion is down to the musicians ability. This talk about "best" systems is a bit premature, because I don't think there is any system yet that has got everything right. Try comparing a concert pianists left hand work with an accordionists - it's not even close. Piano is still miles ahead.​

Thank you for sharing this.
Oivind's recording is just awesome.

To me it's just unbelievable what these guys do with both their hands.
I once transcribed a piece for 2 accordions - inspired by this artist:

Rest assured that despite everyone of us only had to play the right hand part, we by far didn't reach her perfect performance.

 

[saundersbp]

At the end of the day, what can be done with any accordion is down to the musicians ability.

Absolutely! And I can't help thinking the number of systems is a bit silly and detrimental to the more important thing of decent teaching materials and producing standard free bass instruments for affordability and accessibility.

Piano lets you pick expression for every note.
I think the main free reed limitation is the fact that you have single shared expression for everything.

Don't worry. There's no limitation when it comes to expression!
The volume of a note relative to it's musical context is not the apex when it comes to expression. On keyboard instruments, phrasing (touch, articulation, shape) are the foundations of expression and the organ, harpsichord and accordion have these in bucket loads.

 

[tcabot]

And I can't help thinking the number of systems is a bit silly and detrimental to the more important thing of decent teaching materials and producing standard free bass instruments for affordability and accessibility

The Soviets had only one system, structured teaching materials, plenty of competent teachers, government backing to promote the instrument and a line of mass-produced affordable beginner-level converter boxes (the infamous "Rubin").
But it never took off, particularly the free bass element.

Must be that either the general public did not want to listen to free bass, or breaking the skill entry barrier of a 3-by-3 fb box was beyond the talent of an average Joe. There's a limited number of professionally trained highly skilled performers (who tend to play stradella for pop/trad as their bread & butter gigs if you ask them) and an extremely small number of amateur free bass players (when compared to the number of people playing other instruments).

 

[saundersbp]

But it never took off, particularly the free bass element.

Must be that either the general public did not want to listen to free bass, or breaking the skill entry....

This may or may not be true, I guess you have the evidence from the Soviet Union......?
Whatever the actual truth, I'm really enjoying learning some great freebass Bayan music, really in a league of it's own!

Free bass (standardised to B) seems to be doing pretty well in Asia, based on the volumes churned out in Italy!

 

[losthobos]

However, I am convinced that all bass systems are of secondary importance to the dedication and talent of the musician. It is the man or woman who makes these instruments come to life - that's what shines through to me. The arrangement of notes is nothing without the ingenuity of the human being!

"It's 20% about the note and 80% about how the mother****er plays it"....Miles Davis...

 

[tcabot]

If you stopped a random person in the street and asked them to tell you what a freebass accordion/bayan is, the answer in most cases would be "haven't got a clue, never heard of it". Strangely enough, everyone would be able to tell you what a "guitar" or a "flute" is.

Good news about Asia - at least we can hope that Italian manufacturers won't be going out of business any time soon if they are building thousands of free bass boxes a year for the Asian market.

 

[saundersbp]

If you stopped a random person in the street and asked them to tell you what a freebass accordion/bayan is, the answer in most cases would be "haven't got a clue, never heard of it". Strangely enough, everyone would be able to tell you what a "guitar" or a "flute" is.

Struggling to see the relevance...

Good news about Asia - at least we can hope that Italian manufacturers won't be going out of business any time soon if they are building thousands of free bass boxes a year for the Asian market

Yes it's a massive market, we are like a grain of sand in Europe!

 

[Walker]

If you stopped a random person in the street and asked them to tell you what a freebass accordion/bayan is, the answer in most cases would be "haven't got a clue, never heard of it". Strangely enough, everyone would be able to tell you what a "guitar" or a "flute" is.

Indeed buddy, but the "accordion" is a family of musical instruments. I think most people in Scotland would know what an "accordion" was (a piano accordion or a melodeon etc) even if they did not know what a "bayan" was. Likewise, most people would know what a guitar or flute is, but they might scratch their head and look at their feet if you asked them to describe a resonator guitar or a bansuri.

The point being that in any family there is variety... and apparently it's the spice of life.

Anyway, I believe it is quite normal for human beings to want to devise and develop new musical instruments.

We just gotta roll with it and enjoy the journey.

I give you the Ondophone:

 

[Tom]

Indeed buddy, but the "accordion" is a family of musical instruments. I think most people in Scotland would know what an "accordion" was (a piano accordion or a melodeon etc) even if they did not know what a "bayan" was. Likewise, most people would know what a guitar or flute is, but they might scratch their head and look at their feet if you asked them to describe a resonator guitar or a bansuri.

The point being that in any family there is variety... and apparently it's the spice of life.

Anyway, I believe it is quite normal for human beings to want to devise and develop new musical instruments.

We just gotta roll with it and enjoy the journey.

I give you the Ondophone:

Cool!!!!!