AccordionJustice
Active member
All the Moschinos out there are purely freebass, but That doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't be a converter system. I'll have to check with Dallas and see what he thinks.
-
-
We're having a little contest, running until 15th May. Please feel free to enter - see the thread in the "I Did That" section of the forum. Don't be shy, have a go!
Thoughts on Moschino Free bass?
- Thread starter AccordionJustice
- Start date
AccordionJustice
Active member
Good luck with the meeting... if you can, how about a little review of your experience after the event? 
AccordionJustice
Active member
I'll make sure to report back here after its over.Good luck with the meeting... if you can, how about a little review of your experience after the event?
Bruceclayton
Newbie
Jerry thanks so much for sending the video demonstration above!
Obviously this person is a Maestro! Agility-amazing. Speed- incredible.
A couple of other feats-passing the thumb under for 2 octave scales without a hiccup - the kind that takes a lot of practice and work to avoid on the piano side. That is no small feat and is Whiteny Houston like in not having to breathe in some of her vocal twirls.
Amazing.
But once one moves beyond the "Deer in the Headlights" effect and "tonge hanging out "amazement at the speed and agility there are some things to note.
My intent here is to simply show the benefits of the Mochino system.
First, its only 2 octaves. Playing scales on a Mochino system has 5 Octave range and is done with just the 2,3,4th fingers with ease. Any note scale, major, minor, diminished, etc-all the same pattern within each...and for 5 octaves.
Why is that important? Forget playing without modification many Mozart works that have 2-3 octave runs, Many Beethoven works (Pathetique, 5th, Toccata and Fuge in D minor, others etc)
In order for this instrument to do what the Mochino FB does, the left-hand button system would need to be 2 1/2 times longer (that would be about 50 inches) not practical
Also notice the distance that the hand itself must travel to run these 2 octaves-nearly the full length of the button area. Although he does it well and swiftly note the distance traveled. On the Mochino system to run scales of 2 octaves one's hand will not move but a quarter of the distance ...and there are still 3 more octaves.
Let's say I had this Maestro efficient at both instruments start at the same time running the scales. On the Mochino system he would continue another 3 octaves. Also, no need to worry about hiccups from passing under/over thumb...and this is true for every note and every key (Major/minor/diminished -same pattern) He also mentions that the thumb ability is not used for every scale (assume form the looks of the accordion he can get the first 6 but after that a need to learn a new finger pattern for F, F#,G, G# etc?
Actually, if truth be told, on the Mochino system once a rookie learns the C major scale and gets the simple pattern down, he/she can run that scale 5 octaves and do this for any major scale. And the same is true for the slight adjustment to run a minor scale, and then a diminished scale, 6th/7th etc.
Curious how the thumb must come into play on simultaneous octave note playing (Beethoven's 5th after the initial prelude) or simultaneous oscillating between octaves of say C-C or F#-F# etc. On the Mochino FB and octave is easily reached from the 4th -2nd fingers and that can then be run in a chromatic or otherwise pattern up and down 5 octaves and either together or oscillating. This would be critical on many Beethoven works (Pathetique Prelude above etc,)
The demo is a controlled situation- imagine the hand moving that distances over scaling situations/arpeggios when in an extended bellow application as is necessary in many classical compositions so as to prevent sounding like taking a deep breath in the middle of a Pavarotti type run...these are the things meant by 'fighting the instrument" .... problem here is still only 2 octaves where more are needed.
Octave range, simplicity of chord progression, pattern for all scales and arpeggios, etc -Mochino FB system is a Jazz accordionist dream, a beginner's open door to great classics, and a seemingly unlimited upside for the serious classical accordionist.
-Bruce
Obviously this person is a Maestro! Agility-amazing. Speed- incredible.
A couple of other feats-passing the thumb under for 2 octave scales without a hiccup - the kind that takes a lot of practice and work to avoid on the piano side. That is no small feat and is Whiteny Houston like in not having to breathe in some of her vocal twirls.
Amazing.
But once one moves beyond the "Deer in the Headlights" effect and "tonge hanging out "amazement at the speed and agility there are some things to note.
My intent here is to simply show the benefits of the Mochino system.
First, its only 2 octaves. Playing scales on a Mochino system has 5 Octave range and is done with just the 2,3,4th fingers with ease. Any note scale, major, minor, diminished, etc-all the same pattern within each...and for 5 octaves.
Why is that important? Forget playing without modification many Mozart works that have 2-3 octave runs, Many Beethoven works (Pathetique, 5th, Toccata and Fuge in D minor, others etc)
In order for this instrument to do what the Mochino FB does, the left-hand button system would need to be 2 1/2 times longer (that would be about 50 inches) not practical
Also notice the distance that the hand itself must travel to run these 2 octaves-nearly the full length of the button area. Although he does it well and swiftly note the distance traveled. On the Mochino system to run scales of 2 octaves one's hand will not move but a quarter of the distance ...and there are still 3 more octaves.
Let's say I had this Maestro efficient at both instruments start at the same time running the scales. On the Mochino system he would continue another 3 octaves. Also, no need to worry about hiccups from passing under/over thumb...and this is true for every note and every key (Major/minor/diminished -same pattern) He also mentions that the thumb ability is not used for every scale (assume form the looks of the accordion he can get the first 6 but after that a need to learn a new finger pattern for F, F#,G, G# etc?
Actually, if truth be told, on the Mochino system once a rookie learns the C major scale and gets the simple pattern down, he/she can run that scale 5 octaves and do this for any major scale. And the same is true for the slight adjustment to run a minor scale, and then a diminished scale, 6th/7th etc.
Curious how the thumb must come into play on simultaneous octave note playing (Beethoven's 5th after the initial prelude) or simultaneous oscillating between octaves of say C-C or F#-F# etc. On the Mochino FB and octave is easily reached from the 4th -2nd fingers and that can then be run in a chromatic or otherwise pattern up and down 5 octaves and either together or oscillating. This would be critical on many Beethoven works (Pathetique Prelude above etc,)
The demo is a controlled situation- imagine the hand moving that distances over scaling situations/arpeggios when in an extended bellow application as is necessary in many classical compositions so as to prevent sounding like taking a deep breath in the middle of a Pavarotti type run...these are the things meant by 'fighting the instrument" .... problem here is still only 2 octaves where more are needed.
Octave range, simplicity of chord progression, pattern for all scales and arpeggios, etc -Mochino FB system is a Jazz accordionist dream, a beginner's open door to great classics, and a seemingly unlimited upside for the serious classical accordionist.
-Bruce
Walker
🪗
I enjoyed listening to this tune, very nice...
That said, the secret to a successful bass system, isn't about being better - it's about getting lots of people to play the system, teach the system and build the system. If even one of these three criteria is lacking the systems days are numbered.
That said, the secret to a successful bass system, isn't about being better - it's about getting lots of people to play the system, teach the system and build the system. If even one of these three criteria is lacking the systems days are numbered.
Last edited:
Spot on! Whatever the alleged benefits of Moschino it feels sadly like a promising athlete that never made it out of the starting blocks to run the race. If a manufacturer were producing these instruments in significant numbers, most importantly demonstrating a cost saving against the dominant C&B system freebass (i.e. a serious commercial proposition), and the teachers were promoting and playing the system then......just maybe.
There is a fourth issue which I personally think would ultimately hinder it's longevity (I know others will passionately disagree) - the right hand is using the rules of football, the left hand the rules of cricket on these Moschinos. Jerry's 'ideal' freebass accordion is the only one to solve that fundamental problem in the most complete way.
Surely you don't need to modify to play these pieces on C system either. However the musical question is why would you want to play these works anyway - is the future of the accordion's development in producing pale imitations / parodies of the most well known pieces designed to work on other specific instruments. There is so much classical music that was written for keyboard instruments in general rather than relying on those with really specific instrument textures. This is where the accordion can claim some of the greatest music ever written as its own, but is a little shy of doing so at the moment, although things are changing.
I've enjoyed watching some of Mr Secor's videos - he was a great technician and certainly believed in 'the system'. He plays everything very fast...
Bruceclayton
Newbie
Steinway...Kimball
Mario's goal- US Orchestra..
Sorry I let him down by not pursuing.
Mario's goal- US Orchestra..
Sorry I let him down by not pursuing.
Having just had a very brief go at the moschino - the first impressions are that I am blown away. Praise the Lord, I saw the light!
Under 5 minutes to get comfortable doing major scale runs. Under 20 minutes to start playing a basic boogie-woogie rhythm, walking over 3 octaves, going just by looking at the layout print-out. Easy chords, easy inversions, easy scales, easy arpeggios. Comfortable, intuitive, efficient. Incredible.
I've previously had brief attempts at playing bayan, quint and MIII fb systems, and at this moment in time, while I'm still in shock & awe from the moschino, I'd say that trying to play the other systems feels like playing the piano with your feet.
I'll eat my hat if my further experience with the system will turn sour, but for now I am very impressed.
Under 5 minutes to get comfortable doing major scale runs. Under 20 minutes to start playing a basic boogie-woogie rhythm, walking over 3 octaves, going just by looking at the layout print-out. Easy chords, easy inversions, easy scales, easy arpeggios. Comfortable, intuitive, efficient. Incredible.
I've previously had brief attempts at playing bayan, quint and MIII fb systems, and at this moment in time, while I'm still in shock & awe from the moschino, I'd say that trying to play the other systems feels like playing the piano with your feet.
I'll eat my hat if my further experience with the system will turn sour, but for now I am very impressed.
Walker
🪗
@tcabot, you are a very clever man whose skills extend to numerous disciplines within the art of music. I am delighted that you have discovered the best left hand system for your music.
I have always found the 'art' of the free bass lies quite deep below the surface. For me, it's really just a compact cluster of buttons, of less than a foot in its length, and yet brimming with three, four or more octaves, and with intervals of minor thirds or fifths to boot. To tame this small but potent keyboard takes much methodical practice, and the task is complicated by the bellows strap and the left side case shape - so there is not the same free movement on the left hand that the right hand enjoys. Whilst the effective Stradella (bass & chord) system is grand for accompanying dance melodies, there is no doubt free bass will offer new rewards to those able and willing to enter the arena.
I hope that you will, in time, share with us the subtle strengths and challenges of Moschino. All bass systems have them. We can then understand more fully the art of Moschino in a spirit of mutual respect for the different methods it and other bass systems employ. Whilst I have studied Stradella, Quint and Minor Third systems (C griff), and consider them all workable and complete, I am sure you will give us a chance to share in your new Moschino adventure and with the great humour and intellegence that we have come of expect from you.
All the best,
W.
I have always found the 'art' of the free bass lies quite deep below the surface. For me, it's really just a compact cluster of buttons, of less than a foot in its length, and yet brimming with three, four or more octaves, and with intervals of minor thirds or fifths to boot. To tame this small but potent keyboard takes much methodical practice, and the task is complicated by the bellows strap and the left side case shape - so there is not the same free movement on the left hand that the right hand enjoys. Whilst the effective Stradella (bass & chord) system is grand for accompanying dance melodies, there is no doubt free bass will offer new rewards to those able and willing to enter the arena.
I hope that you will, in time, share with us the subtle strengths and challenges of Moschino. All bass systems have them. We can then understand more fully the art of Moschino in a spirit of mutual respect for the different methods it and other bass systems employ. Whilst I have studied Stradella, Quint and Minor Third systems (C griff), and consider them all workable and complete, I am sure you will give us a chance to share in your new Moschino adventure and with the great humour and intellegence that we have come of expect from you.
All the best,
W.
Zevy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2013
- Messages
- 878
- Reaction score
- 712
I saw this one in the accordion museum. It’s too bad that it’s on display and no one plays it.
Attachments
Honestly, I am not against any Free Bass system, for me it's all about the possibilities, not the pattern it takes to do a scale, but like most people when you start on a system, one tends to stick with what you started with, especially if it is a longer period of time and other systems are never discussed or displayed. I've tried only 2 systems (one only most recently) but was charmed with the simplicity of the quint in a few minutes of just futzing.
I am sure I would be equally quickly charmed by any system, Moschino included, having someone walk me through it for 5 minutes, but I am both invested and happy with my MIII system.
I am sure I would be equally quickly charmed by any system, Moschino included, having someone walk me through it for 5 minutes, but I am both invested and happy with my MIII system.
*Any* accordion that sits unused for months, days... decades... is a sad sight. They're kinda like puppies in the store window, they all need to be taken home.
Zevy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2013
- Messages
- 878
- Reaction score
- 712
I agree. The best place for any instrument is in an artist's hands (and if it's an accordion on his or her lap)!*Any* accordion that sits unused for months, days... decades... is a sad sight. They're kinda like puppies in the store window, they all need to be taken home.
Will
Newbie
i played in competitions once upon a time… did some piano and violin concertos… I never did free bass… I picked up my accordion after a long pause and I’m wanting to do free bass… I want a moschino accordion !
It's incredible. I think it might possibly be the best thing to happen to free reeds
My moschino accordion idea is currently on hold, as I've been getting to grips with my Kusserow chromatic bandoneon. Even though Kusserow is very closely related to moschino (also based on 4-row chromatic with doublers), I find that it's not nearly as intuitive or ergonomic. Still feels better than systems based on 3-row chromatic (Bayan, C, etc). The bandoneon hand position is different and that comes with challenges on a moschino-like system.
The instrument itself is very different to an accordion, and I find that I really like what it has to offer so I am sticking to it for the time being - it's a bando vs accordion thing rather a moschino vs something else for me.
If you see a moschino accordion - grab it and don't let go. Use super glue on your hands and torso if required. You'll damage the celluloid, but that can be repaired in the future.
My moschino accordion idea is currently on hold, as I've been getting to grips with my Kusserow chromatic bandoneon. Even though Kusserow is very closely related to moschino (also based on 4-row chromatic with doublers), I find that it's not nearly as intuitive or ergonomic. Still feels better than systems based on 3-row chromatic (Bayan, C, etc). The bandoneon hand position is different and that comes with challenges on a moschino-like system.
The instrument itself is very different to an accordion, and I find that I really like what it has to offer so I am sticking to it for the time being - it's a bando vs accordion thing rather a moschino vs something else for me.
If you see a moschino accordion - grab it and don't let go. Use super glue on your hands and torso if required. You'll damage the celluloid, but that can be repaired in the future.
Walker
🪗
Maybe it's time tcabot... time to channel all that passion into your meano Moschino.It's incredible. I think it might possibly be the best thing to happen to free reeds
My moschino accordion idea is currently on hold, as I've been getting to grips with my Kusserow chromatic bandoneon. Even though Kusserow is very closely related to moschino (also based on 4-row chromatic with doublers), I find that it's not nearly as intuitive or ergonomic. Still feels better than systems based on 3-row chromatic (Bayan, C, etc). The bandoneon hand position is different and that comes with challenges on a moschino-like system.
The instrument itself is very different to an accordion, and I find that I really like what it has to offer so I am sticking to it for the time being - it's a bando vs accordion thing rather a moschino vs something else for me.
If you see a moschino accordion - grab it and don't let go. Use super glue on your hands and torso if required. You'll damage the celluloid, but that can be repaired in the future.
Just sayin'.
Too much choice is not necessarily a good thing... I am very happy that I got the bando - it seems to give me everything that I wanted, but wasn't getting from an accordion...But it's not giving me what I was getting from the accordion either. Never knew that these instruments were so different.
CBA seems to require daily practice to maintain the finger precision, so playing both is not a viable option until I get more free time. It's scary how quickly my CBA abilities have deteriorated.
I've got no targets to meet, no competitions to win, there's no need to rush and make immediate commitments to any instrument.
I guess I'll keep toying with both for now - if that means that I'm limited to playing very simple stuff on them, so be it - as long as I'm having a lot of fun, I really don't care.
In any case, moschino, as a free bass system seems to be better than anything I've tried by a very big margin.
CBA seems to require daily practice to maintain the finger precision, so playing both is not a viable option until I get more free time. It's scary how quickly my CBA abilities have deteriorated.
I've got no targets to meet, no competitions to win, there's no need to rush and make immediate commitments to any instrument.
I guess I'll keep toying with both for now - if that means that I'm limited to playing very simple stuff on them, so be it - as long as I'm having a lot of fun, I really don't care.
In any case, moschino, as a free bass system seems to be better than anything I've tried by a very big margin.
Walker
🪗
EdBouchard
Member
I purchased my Moschino system from Mario M. Not sure of the date. Most likely was in the early 1970s. Might have been in the late 1960s. I had tried several free bass systems back then: Kuehl, Quint, Geraci’s, and the 3-row C-system Giulietti made. It was before converter Stradella/free bass. So to get to the free bass you had to pass your hand over the Stradella. By far,the Giulietti was the best sounding instrument as a totality. On the treble side, Vince Geraci’s custom made Bell was something to dream about. But I personally didn’t like the way the right and left side tonalities blend. That was a problem with the Kuehl system instrument too. I couldn’t afford the Giulietti. So I bought the Moschino.
If you can play a C major scale on a Stradella, the fingering turns out to be exactly the same on a Moschino. Of course the buttons are in a somewhat different place. But the reach in your fingers and hand feels pretty much the same.
If I liked the tonal balance, I’m sure I would have practiced it a lot more than I did. I did play a few Bach Inventions on it. But, looking back, for me personally, I wasn’t drawn to want to play it because of the sound.
I recently saw a video of Frederich Lips (in Russian with subtitles) saying how he and Mogens Ellegaard worked with accordion makers to improve the acoustics of the blend twixt treble and free bass. That jives with my experience. Except for the Giulietti’s, the instruments of the late 20th century and beyond sound much better tome than those I had opportunity to try even in the 1970s. Lips and Ellegaard made an important contribution.
The Moschino and Kuehl keyboards are both a bit better than quite okay. Given a good acoustic balance of instruments made today, there would likely be lots of fine musicians playing them if they were still being made. However, my experience tells me either C-system or B-system is a better choice. Also, if the Moschino or Kuehl keyboards were preferable to a C- or B-system, likely someone would have started making Moschino or Kuehl treble keyboards too.
Moschino is a 4-row keyboards with alternating columns so the fingering can be the same in all keys. The ‘stack’ is in major 3rds. The stack on a 3-row CBA (C- or B-system) is in minor 3rds. The latter feels much easier for constructing chords. The 3-row CBA has stood the test of time. If anyone want to learn freebass. I highly recommend C- or B-system, depending on what is most played where you happen to reside.
If you can play a C major scale on a Stradella, the fingering turns out to be exactly the same on a Moschino. Of course the buttons are in a somewhat different place. But the reach in your fingers and hand feels pretty much the same.
If I liked the tonal balance, I’m sure I would have practiced it a lot more than I did. I did play a few Bach Inventions on it. But, looking back, for me personally, I wasn’t drawn to want to play it because of the sound.
I recently saw a video of Frederich Lips (in Russian with subtitles) saying how he and Mogens Ellegaard worked with accordion makers to improve the acoustics of the blend twixt treble and free bass. That jives with my experience. Except for the Giulietti’s, the instruments of the late 20th century and beyond sound much better tome than those I had opportunity to try even in the 1970s. Lips and Ellegaard made an important contribution.
The Moschino and Kuehl keyboards are both a bit better than quite okay. Given a good acoustic balance of instruments made today, there would likely be lots of fine musicians playing them if they were still being made. However, my experience tells me either C-system or B-system is a better choice. Also, if the Moschino or Kuehl keyboards were preferable to a C- or B-system, likely someone would have started making Moschino or Kuehl treble keyboards too.
Moschino is a 4-row keyboards with alternating columns so the fingering can be the same in all keys. The ‘stack’ is in major 3rds. The stack on a 3-row CBA (C- or B-system) is in minor 3rds. The latter feels much easier for constructing chords. The 3-row CBA has stood the test of time. If anyone want to learn freebass. I highly recommend C- or B-system, depending on what is most played where you happen to reside.
Similar threads
