When you say this, what is it that you are doing exactly? Is it playing with the valves, the reeds, or what?Edocaster said:
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Thanks!
E
Edocaster
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When you say this, what is it that you are doing exactly? Is it playing with the valves, the reeds, or what?Edocaster said:
Thanks![/quote]
Its been some time now, but from what I remember it mostly involved adjusting the clearance of the reed above the reed plate. Too high = slow to sound, although if its set too low it may choke under high pressure. As these are pretty standard reeds though, my goals were probably quite modest.
Thank-you. 
I was asking because I have one note in piccolo that is a bit slow to start and was wondering how to address it eventually one day.
I was asking because I have one note in piccolo that is a bit slow to start and was wondering how to address it eventually one day.
E
Edocaster
Guest
Hello all - just posting an update... which is no update! I essentially deferred fixing the bass side until now, preferring not to be without an accordion for many weeks. Nothing like actually attempting to learn to play!
But, finally, I bit the bullet and have now opened the thing up to have a go at the bass side. I finally took the chord block off - it was very snug which made that quite a challenge. But the glued-in remaining block is going to be problematic. Please see the picture below (note, that was before I managed to remove one of the reed blocks) - the reed blocks are surrounded by a wooden frame about 1cm high, which is very close to the edge of the glued-on block. Even getting the reeds out will be difficult. The inner valves from the row closest to the camera are quite curled (the accordion was probably stored on its back), so it needs a fix. But how would one go about removing and rewaxing the reeds here?
But, finally, I bit the bullet and have now opened the thing up to have a go at the bass side. I finally took the chord block off - it was very snug which made that quite a challenge. But the glued-in remaining block is going to be problematic. Please see the picture below (note, that was before I managed to remove one of the reed blocks) - the reed blocks are surrounded by a wooden frame about 1cm high, which is very close to the edge of the glued-on block. Even getting the reeds out will be difficult. The inner valves from the row closest to the camera are quite curled (the accordion was probably stored on its back), so it needs a fix. But how would one go about removing and rewaxing the reeds here?
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Mr Mark
Squeezebaggeroni...
Hey there, nice Hohner...I did a rebuild recently of a Verdi II, and found the same issue. One bass reed block glued in and the other not.
All my years of construction experience told me old and glued wood meant removal would likely mean breakage, and I managed to prove that by trying to remove the glued in reedblock. Thankfully the damage was minimal and easily repaired, but as soon as it occurred I knew I was going to have to wax the reeds WITH the block in place. I read somewhere else about this (maybe this thread :roll: ) and the advice was also to rewax with the block in place. What I really noticed was how fragile the soundboard was (Where the reedblock glues to) after 60+ years and even minimal poking/prodding seemed to want to accentuate any existing damages or delaminatation of the plys on the soundboard.
It actually isn't as difficult as it seems, just don't do what I did and actually get the reeds in the wrong order :shock: :shock: :shock: - especially on the side with little room to work, again like I did :shock: :shock: :shock: (No idea how this happened as they were labeled from the start - still bemused). Of note was the fact the original installer had only used a light application of wax at the bottom before the reeds went in, so that is what I did and used a brush. Also of note; I fabricated my own wax spoons for the job (two, one being what I think of as the traditional or simple 'round blade' spoon and the other I think of as the 'ladle spoon' which you actually fill with wax) so when I was done I filled the trough with wax using the 'ladle spoon' then filled in any gaps using the 'blade spoon'. The point here was that it was good to have a variety of implements at hand.
Being a first timer I definitely used way too much wax overall - which I soon discovered when I had to take it all apart again after discovering reeds were installed in the wrong order.
Also of critical note - I had removed the entire bass mechanism on the other side to do this so I wouldn't accidentally get was on the pallet felts. It turns out I actually had no drips anyway but probably would have victimized myself to Murphys law if I hadn't.
I eventually discovered a couple of the interior reed leathers (plastic now) had to be trimmed down after they were already installed and waxed as they were catching on the reed block itself - but found this to be a very easy thing to do, even with the reed block already glued in - the key here was a nice set of tweezers, a headlamp and high powered reading glasses.
A final note, maybe install some painters tape to the other side of the reed block at the felt of the non glued in reed block to prevent accidentally dripping was onto it while rewaxing the glued in block. Just be sure to not actually stick the tape to the felt as it will definitely take some off later!
Tuning was a little more challenging. What I did was reverse engineer a tuning table by removing the treble section, and leaving the bellows on the bass section. I then fabricated a top plate out of thin plywood and carefully attached it to the top of the bellows with screws (predrilled about a third of the way in from each end - 4 screws total). So what is left is an accordion with a piece of plywood covering the top of the bellows instead of the treble section. I should also note that I only used 2 out of the 6 pins to secure the bellows to the bass side and covered the other four holes with tape - this made it a lot quicker to take the bellows on and off which is necessary for tuning adjustments. I also taped over the holes for the other (tenor) block. Somewhere along the way I also installed some old weatherstripping between the plywood and bellows for a better seal, and thus less air leaks. It takes a little long to tune this way but wasn't too bad overall as it was mostly in tune in the first place.
I hope this helps, Good luck!
All my years of construction experience told me old and glued wood meant removal would likely mean breakage, and I managed to prove that by trying to remove the glued in reedblock. Thankfully the damage was minimal and easily repaired, but as soon as it occurred I knew I was going to have to wax the reeds WITH the block in place. I read somewhere else about this (maybe this thread :roll: ) and the advice was also to rewax with the block in place. What I really noticed was how fragile the soundboard was (Where the reedblock glues to) after 60+ years and even minimal poking/prodding seemed to want to accentuate any existing damages or delaminatation of the plys on the soundboard.
It actually isn't as difficult as it seems, just don't do what I did and actually get the reeds in the wrong order :shock: :shock: :shock: - especially on the side with little room to work, again like I did :shock: :shock: :shock: (No idea how this happened as they were labeled from the start - still bemused). Of note was the fact the original installer had only used a light application of wax at the bottom before the reeds went in, so that is what I did and used a brush. Also of note; I fabricated my own wax spoons for the job (two, one being what I think of as the traditional or simple 'round blade' spoon and the other I think of as the 'ladle spoon' which you actually fill with wax) so when I was done I filled the trough with wax using the 'ladle spoon' then filled in any gaps using the 'blade spoon'. The point here was that it was good to have a variety of implements at hand.
Being a first timer I definitely used way too much wax overall - which I soon discovered when I had to take it all apart again after discovering reeds were installed in the wrong order.
Also of critical note - I had removed the entire bass mechanism on the other side to do this so I wouldn't accidentally get was on the pallet felts. It turns out I actually had no drips anyway but probably would have victimized myself to Murphys law if I hadn't.
I eventually discovered a couple of the interior reed leathers (plastic now) had to be trimmed down after they were already installed and waxed as they were catching on the reed block itself - but found this to be a very easy thing to do, even with the reed block already glued in - the key here was a nice set of tweezers, a headlamp and high powered reading glasses.
A final note, maybe install some painters tape to the other side of the reed block at the felt of the non glued in reed block to prevent accidentally dripping was onto it while rewaxing the glued in block. Just be sure to not actually stick the tape to the felt as it will definitely take some off later!
Tuning was a little more challenging. What I did was reverse engineer a tuning table by removing the treble section, and leaving the bellows on the bass section. I then fabricated a top plate out of thin plywood and carefully attached it to the top of the bellows with screws (predrilled about a third of the way in from each end - 4 screws total). So what is left is an accordion with a piece of plywood covering the top of the bellows instead of the treble section. I should also note that I only used 2 out of the 6 pins to secure the bellows to the bass side and covered the other four holes with tape - this made it a lot quicker to take the bellows on and off which is necessary for tuning adjustments. I also taped over the holes for the other (tenor) block. Somewhere along the way I also installed some old weatherstripping between the plywood and bellows for a better seal, and thus less air leaks. It takes a little long to tune this way but wasn't too bad overall as it was mostly in tune in the first place.
I hope this helps, Good luck!
good god, the patience of some people !!!!!!
E
Edocaster
Guest
Mr Mark said:
Thanks for the encouraging, helpful and passionate write up. I cant imagine I will be anywhere near as detailed or diligent (I hadnt even thought about removing the bass mechanism - I can see that going massively wrong for me!). But its great to see some collective experience.
Mr Mark
Squeezebaggeroni...
It seemed fairly relevant and I was in the mood so there you go :ch .
I am a big believer in the collective shared experience(s) on forums like these.
I'm an even bigger believer in the accordion {} .
I am a big believer in the collective shared experience(s) on forums like these.
I'm an even bigger believer in the accordion {} .
No one can ever doubt that here Mark... lol
E
Edocaster
Guest
Hi all,
Im still at this, albeit sporadically. The newest update is I removed all the bass end reeds and revalved them. The chord block was removable as mentioned before, and I dealt with that first, tuning at first outside the accordion, and then finally in the accordion.
Silencing reeds from the bass note block was a challenge. I tried slipping paper under the reeds, but silencing the inner reeds was a bigger challenge. I ever tried swaddling the entire block in clingfilm. At the end of the day, when I got close enough, I simply played the chord buttons (which dont activate the bass notes), and was able to silence one of the two reeds for each note on the chord block by taping off that row (as the chord block is removable). Technically, that meant I was playing three notes, which is impossible to tune with a standard tuner. So, as mentioned elsewhere, I tested out recording the chords via Adobe Audition and viewing the spectrogram at a high FFT setting. I played:
C Maj; G# Min; A# Maj; F# Min
...twice for each chord, once on pull and once on push, with each chord played for at least two seconds. This ensures that every reed in the row gets recorded. Then it was a question of seeing how far off the intended frequency each note was. Not a quick, or live, method. But it is as realistic as can be, as each note in the triad interact with one another.
Today I revalved the bass notes block. That was a royal PITA, as its glued in, and the bottom of each reed was bathed in (now brittle) glue too. I cleaned and scrapped off what I could before proceeding. The gaps between each reed are too narrow for my soldering iron, and the brush method led to a few accidents (the worst was a drop of wax on a palette - I scrapped off as much as possible). Moreover, the ledge I mentioned earlier is almost a deal-breaker:
...satisfactorily waxing this was almost impossible. I had planned to repeatedly remove the reeds as necessary for tuning, but thats probably going to be impractical.
Im almost stumped for ideas now on how to tune the bass block now Ive waxed and valved everything in. Isolating the bass note I need might involve bits of card. Or I may resort to Adobe Audition again, knowing which reed affects the lowest octave. Its... going to be laborious...
Im still at this, albeit sporadically. The newest update is I removed all the bass end reeds and revalved them. The chord block was removable as mentioned before, and I dealt with that first, tuning at first outside the accordion, and then finally in the accordion.
Silencing reeds from the bass note block was a challenge. I tried slipping paper under the reeds, but silencing the inner reeds was a bigger challenge. I ever tried swaddling the entire block in clingfilm. At the end of the day, when I got close enough, I simply played the chord buttons (which dont activate the bass notes), and was able to silence one of the two reeds for each note on the chord block by taping off that row (as the chord block is removable). Technically, that meant I was playing three notes, which is impossible to tune with a standard tuner. So, as mentioned elsewhere, I tested out recording the chords via Adobe Audition and viewing the spectrogram at a high FFT setting. I played:
C Maj; G# Min; A# Maj; F# Min
...twice for each chord, once on pull and once on push, with each chord played for at least two seconds. This ensures that every reed in the row gets recorded. Then it was a question of seeing how far off the intended frequency each note was. Not a quick, or live, method. But it is as realistic as can be, as each note in the triad interact with one another.
Today I revalved the bass notes block. That was a royal PITA, as its glued in, and the bottom of each reed was bathed in (now brittle) glue too. I cleaned and scrapped off what I could before proceeding. The gaps between each reed are too narrow for my soldering iron, and the brush method led to a few accidents (the worst was a drop of wax on a palette - I scrapped off as much as possible). Moreover, the ledge I mentioned earlier is almost a deal-breaker:
...satisfactorily waxing this was almost impossible. I had planned to repeatedly remove the reeds as necessary for tuning, but thats probably going to be impractical.
Im almost stumped for ideas now on how to tune the bass block now Ive waxed and valved everything in. Isolating the bass note I need might involve bits of card. Or I may resort to Adobe Audition again, knowing which reed affects the lowest octave. Its... going to be laborious...
Attachments
When you cannot isolate an individual reed for tuning that's where Dirk's Accordion Tuner comes to the rescue. It is not a tool for the amateur (because it is not very cheap like a phone tuner app) but it allows you to tune reeds in a chord, reeds an octave apart and reeds in tremolo. This is all extremely useful because the tuning of a reed can vary slightly when another reed is being played simultaneously. (It can be a pain to then find the best compromise.)
If you already tuned the higher sounding reeds then adjusting the lower ones is essentially a matter of eliminating tremolo that occurs when the perfectly tuned reed and the still to tune reed play together.
The bit that requires the most fiddling is to "pull out" one of the inside reeds in order to tune it. Professionals have special tools for this (like an "herausheber") but patience and a paperclip can do the trick as well. This is not just needed when a bass block is glued in but also with a 90 or 180 degree "winkelbass" construction.
If you already tuned the higher sounding reeds then adjusting the lower ones is essentially a matter of eliminating tremolo that occurs when the perfectly tuned reed and the still to tune reed play together.
The bit that requires the most fiddling is to "pull out" one of the inside reeds in order to tune it. Professionals have special tools for this (like an "herausheber") but patience and a paperclip can do the trick as well. This is not just needed when a bass block is glued in but also with a 90 or 180 degree "winkelbass" construction.
Mr Mark
Squeezebaggeroni...
Nice to see some progress there. It does look like a very clean job. Mine not so much. This is how I tuned the glued in bass section on my Verdi II.
Probably not the most helpful for you but I ended up using an app called VITAL tuner. I tried quite a few and found it the most helpful for the least amount of dollars. If I could I would definitely shell out for Dirks. VITAL Tuner worked for my needs, being dollars.
Here are some pictures of the frankenstein tuning table I built. I didn't have a spare bellows laying around so I just made one to fit what I had - which ended up serving a dual purpose fairly well as I was able to use the top plate in lieu of the treble section to tune the bass section (for the other three reed blocks I used the whole table). Of course this was tedious and laborious but not as bad as one might think if you only use minimal bellow pins (the four corners) and tape off the rest of the pinholes. Basically every time I tested a note and had to make adjustments I would remove the pins at the bass section, take off the bellows with top plate attached, make my tuning adjustments then reattach. Thankfully there are only twelve notes but really this does not take much time once you have a consistent method.
Learning technique fiddling with a paperclip (I used a safety pin) bent to the right angles was how I tuned the inner reeds - as debra describes. I have since learned this is a good method to use for spot tuning without removing whole reed blocks,
Pay no heed to the brutal carpentry, I made booboos and repaired on the fly :mrgreen: .
Probably not the most helpful for you but I ended up using an app called VITAL tuner. I tried quite a few and found it the most helpful for the least amount of dollars. If I could I would definitely shell out for Dirks. VITAL Tuner worked for my needs, being dollars.
Here are some pictures of the frankenstein tuning table I built. I didn't have a spare bellows laying around so I just made one to fit what I had - which ended up serving a dual purpose fairly well as I was able to use the top plate in lieu of the treble section to tune the bass section (for the other three reed blocks I used the whole table). Of course this was tedious and laborious but not as bad as one might think if you only use minimal bellow pins (the four corners) and tape off the rest of the pinholes. Basically every time I tested a note and had to make adjustments I would remove the pins at the bass section, take off the bellows with top plate attached, make my tuning adjustments then reattach. Thankfully there are only twelve notes but really this does not take much time once you have a consistent method.
Learning technique fiddling with a paperclip (I used a safety pin) bent to the right angles was how I tuned the inner reeds - as debra describes. I have since learned this is a good method to use for spot tuning without removing whole reed blocks,
Pay no heed to the brutal carpentry, I made booboos and repaired on the fly :mrgreen: .
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Mr Mark post_id=50523 time=1505793273 user_id=1991 said:
The app I use is datuner lite and it works wonders for what it costs (zero dollars, aka free, gratis). It is great for some quick checking of a reed on the go. For serious work at home I do rely on Dirks Accordion Tuner.
E
Edocaster
Guest
Thanks all. For now, Im basically reassembling the entire accordion as a tuning bellows.
To silence one side of the glued in reed block I have tried this:
...it works to silence the reeds on that side of the block (and for the removable chord block I slipped paper beneath in the traditional way). However, as you can guess, air will leak out of this side of the block. Im not sure if thats more or less realistic (as both sides of the block will always be open in normal use), but its obviously different from the usual way of isolating reeds by sealing off other reeds.
All my tuner readings were sharp by a few cents. But before I start trying to tune I will probably remove the toothpicks and just play both bass banks together, and take a spectrograph reading on Adobe Audition again. Perhaps, with both sides operating normally I will find a more reliable result before attempting any tuning.
To silence one side of the glued in reed block I have tried this:
...it works to silence the reeds on that side of the block (and for the removable chord block I slipped paper beneath in the traditional way). However, as you can guess, air will leak out of this side of the block. Im not sure if thats more or less realistic (as both sides of the block will always be open in normal use), but its obviously different from the usual way of isolating reeds by sealing off other reeds.
All my tuner readings were sharp by a few cents. But before I start trying to tune I will probably remove the toothpicks and just play both bass banks together, and take a spectrograph reading on Adobe Audition again. Perhaps, with both sides operating normally I will find a more reliable result before attempting any tuning.
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E
Edocaster
Guest
I'm pretty much done on tuning now. Instead of the picture below (with the toothpicks) I just had to accept that two of the bass notes would play together when tuning. So I had to use Adobe Audition's spectral analysis to tune by hertz. This gets a little difficult with the lowest reeds, as even 0.1 Hz may be 3 cents. But that's the nature of bass notes.
Overall, I'm pleased enough with the tuning now.
Overall, I'm pleased enough with the tuning now.
Stephen Hawkins
Experienced Gentleman.
Edocaster,
Congratulations! You deserve great respect for all the effort you have put into this project. Well done!
Kind Regards,
Stephen.
Congratulations! You deserve great respect for all the effort you have put into this project. Well done!
Kind Regards,
Stephen.
E
Edocaster
Guest
Hello all,
Just a quick video to show the accordion playing in its current state.
I needed to use one different chord due to C# minor being on the other end of the bass. So please excuse that and the sloppy playing.
Its been a few months since I opened it up to fiddle with anything, so some of the tuning may have drifted. I probably wont do any work on the palettes, as that would be more major surgery.
Thanks to everyone for all the advice and encouragement!
Just a quick video to show the accordion playing in its current state.
I needed to use one different chord due to C# minor being on the other end of the bass. So please excuse that and the sloppy playing.
Its been a few months since I opened it up to fiddle with anything, so some of the tuning may have drifted. I probably wont do any work on the palettes, as that would be more major surgery.
Thanks to everyone for all the advice and encouragement!
Jiri
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Edocaster post_id=56936 time=1523186887 user_id=1490 said:
Congratulation - It sounds really good !!! :b
I did the similar job with small 1 row diatonics accordion (10 buttons, 2x8 tremolo) two years ago.
It cost me so much time and effort and I am sure, that I will never do it with bigger accordion (but never say never :hb ).
Honestly, I was not fully satisfied with the result. You have my respect!
My attempt was on this instrument (picture before and after):
<ATTACHMENT filename=proměna.jpg index=0>
Enjoy playing !
Jiri
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