Reviving a Hohner Verdi I

[TomBR]

I haven't been following this thread but I would always get reeds approximately tuned on the tuning bellows while they are loose before valving and putting them back on the blocks.

There's nothing fundamentally hard about tuning reeds, but there is a lot of art to doing it well! Much of the skill is being good AND fast.

I think dry tuning on the treble is a good route for a first project, but if you want something else, go for it!

 

[JerryPH]

I have yet to see any good and careful tuner use a grinder (dremel).

From the guy that is the maker of the worlds most used computer software for tuning accordions, and if I am not mistaken, hes from your part of the world too and a professional tuner as well.

Now, is this the best way? I dont know, my personal experience is exactly ZERO in this domain. In my mind hand craftsmanship always sounds better and if I had to have my accordion tuned, I would prefer to see someone using a file, just like in the old days... but as you see in the video, dremel style tools can get the job done. I wouldnt use one on a Gola, but for a Verdi I... why not? This is a personal instrument where there is no rush to be fast and no desire for all reeds to be within 1/10th of a cent from the perfect tune.

Also as they say in that accordion revival website, there even isnt a need to go all out nuts when it comes to tuning, as long as one gets pretty close, the human ear wont hear the differences most of the time. There is also the fact that reed tuning changes some with humidity, temperature and age, so ones 75 hour super tune of last month could be way off in comparison to todays sound.

Tom did have a very good point, though, that the dry tune for the first time is the way to go if you wanted to do this yourself. From all that I have read and seen, the real art is when you start getting into wet tunes. Getting every note to 440 is a lot easier than trying to offset different reeds and getting a specific style of sound and tremolo.

 

[debra]

I have yet to see any good and careful tuner use a grinder (dremel).

From the guy that is the maker of the worlds most used computer software for tuning accordions, and if I am not mistaken, hes from your part of the world too and a professional tuner as well. ...

[/quote]
Ouch. It hurts just to see this action and its result on the reeds...
Dirks accordion tuner is great. (I use it too.) But the method for doing the actual tuning... I dont even understand why, when not using wax, the reed plate is not simply removed to work on the inner reed. Its always better to tune a reed without bending it. When the reed plates are nailed on leather its quite easy to take the reed plate out for tuning and then put it back in for testing.

 

[Edocaster]

Thanks for all the thoughts.

Yes, I'll be doing the tuning. While it looks a challenge, nothing on the accordionrevival site makes it look like mission impossible. My set up is slightly limited - e.g. between my hardware, software and test bellows I think I can only measure down to 1 to 2 cents stably. So I don't expect pro results, but at least an improvement.

Currently (i.e. before glueing the external valves), I've singled out one pull reed on what looks like the dry bank 19 cents above the reference (assuming A4=440Hz), and as a test I will see how I can bring it down to 10 cents sharp, just to get a feel for this. I won't take it all the way to 0 yet, as the in-accordion measurements may indicate an offset. Plus, even though the reed blocks are stamped '880' the tuning may not actually be 440.

Both the Dirk video and accordionrevival are very similar in describing the process, although I have no plans on using a dremel. I have very narrow diamond files which may prove usable in this awkward context (flattening a pull reed waxed on).

Everything has been a learning process in the last month or so! From my point of view the stakes are pretty low (worst that can happen is I break something), and I'm definitely learning a whole bunch of new things.

 

[JerryPH]

I found a cool site that talks about accordion tuning and a few other things and may help you a bit:

https://accordionknowhow.wordpress.com/

The guy seems pretty open about how he does things and I liked how he explained tuning. Seeing his explanations, I can now understand better why Paul Debra was gagging when he looked at the video of someone using a dremel to tune reeds... lol

 

[debra]

I found a cool site that talks about accordion tuning and a few other things and may help you a bit:

https://accordionknowhow.wordpress.com/

The guy seems pretty open about how he does things and I liked how he explained tuning. Seeing his explanations, I can now understand better why Paul Debra was gagging when he looked at the video of someone using a dremel to tune reeds... lol

Thanks much for this link. It contains a very good explanation. The one thing it does not explain on the tuning page (but it does on the what to tune to page) is what to do with very small (high pitch) reeds. There my repair teacher gave me very valuable advice (thanks Henk Vos!): dont be afraid to remove reeds. When you have to sharpen (tune up) a small non-facing reed pulling it up is not really a viable option. Dont try to do it, just pop out the reed plate so you can work on the reed on its facing side without any risk of bending it. Its a bit of work taking reeds (actually reed plates) out and back in after every adjustment but it is a safe way and worth the extra time it takes. Usually there is enough wax to hold the reed well enough when pushed back in to then check the tuning and only melt it in after tuning is done.

 

[Edocaster]

Small update. Ive finished adding valves to the treble side.


Before adding all the external valves (although Id already valved the whole of the black block) I took the plunge with some preliminary tuning (after measuring all the notes on my test bellows), to bring things to within 10 cents of my tuning plan. No closer, as I know the measurements will change in the accordion.

Everything was a bit sharp, so with any luck I will not have to do much, if any, sharpening. Filing is something I obviously need to get used to. I used a diamond needle file for external reeds, but it was still too large for inner reeds. The art of tuning reeds in situ is discussed quite a bit on melodeon.net, so I figured I would have to learn some of that. For inner reeds I used abrasive paper on a cocktail stick, filing on the back of the reed. I was initially a bit sheepish about removing from the blued side, but thats what the Dirks Accordion video shows anyway.

Do people tend to file exactly one-third up from the rivet to flatten, or is it dependent on reed size? The pre-existing tuning marks vary between one-third to almost half-way up.

As for the tuning plan, I will attempt a tremolo tuning (the plan is between 2.3 and 7 Hz), partly for taste, but also to minimise unnecessary filing, as its clear that one side of each block is the M+ voice.

The next steps are to take readings from the blocks, then to install them and (taping off one voice) to take measurements there, to calculate the tuning offset targets.

 

[Edocaster]

Just in case anyone is still reading this... the work is still going on, albeit more sporadically. I put the box back together and measured all the treble notes (using a couple of strips of paper to isolate the voices). Very interesting variation compared to the out of box measurements, mostly lower, but a few higher. I now know why the accordionrevival site says they all need to be measured, as you cant just apply an overall correction factor. I now have a few spreadsheets, which is always fun...

Most importantly, everything worked. To my novice ears, even though the tuning was off by a few cents for most notes, it sounded very good. I had a go at the first few lessons from http://duaneschnur.com/accordion/lessons.htm - very helpful.

But that was just a pause, so I removed the treble blocks again and started tuning to the targets calculated. It is taking a Very Long Time, mostly because I am treading pretty carefully, using diamond needle and riffler files and bits of abrasive paper on wooden sticks. Very thin paper, post-it notes, cut up pieces of card, cocktails sticks, camera blower - you name it, theyve all had a role to play. As this is all new territory Im sure a few reeds have had a bit more torture than is necessary. Using just spare time it has taken me all last week to do one side of the white block (20 notes).

Anyway, Im sure there is a long way to go, and once this stage is done, there will be another stage of measuring and correction back in the accordion...

 

[JerryPH]

Trust me, I am following this thread closely. There are already several very good tips here, and it is a VERY interesting topic for me, I am enjoying reading about your progress, plus I am sure that I am not alone.

A short video of how you tune a reed, test it and get it to where it's close would be very helpful.

 

[Edocaster]

Well... I don't feel anywhere near qualified to make a video. Plus it would probably be half an hour of me overshooting the target and cursing (and, yes, I did manage to start filing a reed to move the tuning in completely the wrong direction ).

It's definitely worth trying this on an accordion you don't much care for first.

Here are a few thoughts/things I've picked up so far:
- For an outer reed you have access to the normal side, so filing that is fairly straightforward.
- To flatten, the accordionrevival site recommends diagonal filing. With diamond needle files the direction isn't really critical, so I just filed straight towards or away from the rivet in very short strokes.
- You need to support the reed tongue. I used a very thin piece of paper (like rolling paper) to lift the tongue, and then slipped in something like glossy card. Or even a post-it note.
- I learned quite a bit about voicing. If you need to alter it (i.e. the reed chokes because it is too deep, or is slow to sound because it is too high) it will affect the tuning by a couple of cents. Also, I wondered why the dirksaccordion video showed a magnet... well, if you push the tongue in too far so that the reed chokes you may not be able to slip a paper/feeler gauge to fish it back out again. And the other side is inconveniently blocked by the valve. Magnet to the rescue!
- For inner reeds the dirksaccordion video showed filing (or dremelling in the case of the video... I'm not doing that) the blued side. But I've found I can just as conveniently access the inner reed through the reed block hole, especially for lowering the note. Diamond needle files are helpful here, especially the curved riffler type. A head-mounted light is necessary too. I also made a small hockey stick-shaped piece of glossy card that can go into the slot and support the tongue (the tongue needs to be lifted slightly first - do this by slipping something under the valve from outside and pushing in slightly.
- But I experimented with both sides (so quite a few of my reeds show several 'wounds'...). Flattening from the blued side isn't easy with a file though, so you would have to use a scraper for that.
- For sharpening an inner reed I did do what was shown on the accordionrevival site - namely a thin cocktail stick/precision screwdriver slipped in via the reed block hole to bend the tongue all the way to the outside. Still horribly fiddly as you have to gently move the valve out of the way before you can file. On the highest reeds to avoid bending I just worked via the reed block hole instead.

My tuner is my android phone running PItchlab Pro. This has an accuracy of 0.5 cents, which is lower than some others, but seems more than enough for me. It actually also has a frequency reading down to 0.1 Hz, which is surely more than enough.

Anyway, I'm sure quite a bit of this experience so far is plain wrong or at least very inefficient, but it's the journey that counts.

 

[Soulsaver]

Thanks Edocaster. I'm also following with interest as I intend to sharpen (oh..) up my tuning skills...

 

[Edocaster]

Ack... managed to sharpen the wrong reed by 5 cents. And that's despite using a small piece of blu-tack to tell me which reed I'm supposed to be working on... :roll:

 

[spacetrakker]

Hi Edocaster,
Just to let you know that I (and I suspect many others) also have been closely watching your progress and really appreciate your efforts in documenting the adventure for the benefit of all forum members. I am just starting the restoration of an old Excelsior accordion so have a keen interest in your progress Best wishes for a successful conclusion.
Cheers John

 

[Edocaster]

Everything went back in the accordion, and I measured the results of the dry bank ('front' bank) of reeds, and 90% were within 2 cents of reference tuning. I noted which ones needed retuning. I also noted some reeds were a bit slow to sound, so had a task adjusting the voicing.

I'm really happy with the Pitchlab tuning app, BTW.

Second time around and all but one reed are within 1.5 cents of reference. Once I fix that last one, tuning-wise, I don't think I can or need to get any closer to in-tune. I'm still getting a few slow reeds, and I'm not entirely certain I can solve this one. Voicing is a bit of a dark art, and some of the reed clearances overall probably aren't ideal across all three dimensions. It's particularly noticeable with higher reeds, and they tend to need more effort to get going. I did notice I have an A#5 and B5 which seemed noticeably slow. These were also reeds which originally didn't have valves but now do (as everything up to C6 seems to be the norm?) I suppose I can remove those valves, although the reeds will then hiss like the higher notes (which are still quite slow).

Maybe I just need to play harder...

Anyway, the next steps after this are the back reeds and adjusting the tremolo.

 

[Edocaster]

I didnt find as much time to progress as Id hoped, but here is a video of the accordion back together, with one treble voice blocked off: - please excuse the wobbly playing, Ive not really had much time with the accordion intact.

The bass side hasnt been touched, so is just as it was when I got it. I presume it hasnt been touched for 70-80 years...

It took roughly three cycles of tuning before I was happy with just this one treble voice in terms of tuning and voicing. Since the video Ive been getting the other treble voice tuned, and will probably get to the final treble stage of tuning by beats soon.

After that, then its the bass. Then maybe a new gasket. Dont even ask about the clacking keys though - I think Ill draw the line there.

 

[JerryPH]

Oh, maybe this super newbie can offer a suggestion on the clacking. It is likely the foam and felt pads that require attention or adjustment. The less air lost, the more that is available for the system overall and this may help with the slow responding high notes. It could also be the felts underneath the keys themselves.

For someone that did not have prior tuning experience, to tune the treble side to within 1.5 cents as you have done is nothing short of very impressive! Remember that a trained and experienced tuner can spend as much as 30 hours on the treble side alone to bring a badly tuned instrument down to the specs you are at with yours. I would not expect less than 3 times that amount of time for myself, if it was my first so, to be able to do it at all, is already a worthy accomplishment!

I'm cheering you on and thanking you for sharing your efforts!

 

[colinm]

Keep up the good work educator, you have inspired me to replace a broken reed, only £2.50 from Charlie ( how does he do,it), I found the wax was drying on the brush etc, so reverted to cutting slivers off the wax block and melting them round the reed plate with a fine nosed temperature adjustable soldering iron, worked well.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Edocaster]

Heres a quick video of the accordion in its current condition: - apologies for the messy playing.

Since the last video, I tuned up both treble voices as per the tuning plan. Took a few passes to get every note as close to the beat as wanted. Im not super picky though, so the beat progression is more general than mathematically perfect. Also, the tuning was done over a month before this video, so who knows whether things have drifted in the heat of summer.

I havent quite worked up the courage to go in again to start on the bass, largely as it means no accordion for weeks on end! But it will happen.

 

[wout]

Nice work it is enjoyable to read your report! Whats that song you play? Heard it many times but never knew the name

 

[Edocaster]

Hi - it's a simplified version of Mon Amant de Saint Jean.