No wax used but gasket

[debra]

...
Or, if you prefer you could listen to this:-



If that guy was playing that box in Milan Id make sure I was in Calabria until he had stopped playing. No way I could listen to that for longer than I could find the mute button. Hes probably a great player, just not my cup of tea. There is strong musette and thats up there with the strongest.  XXXXXL musette!

That just hurts to the ear!  It is at least old style musette with MMM tuned -24 0 24 if not worse... This is also called Amsterdam tuning...

 

[Shand79MorinoMan]

I do not think you would enjoy my mussette on my Hohner 3 row Shand Morino BCC# BUTTON box 24/26.
Roy

 

[maugein96]

I do not think you would enjoy my mussette on my Hohner 3 row Shand Morino BCC# BUTTON box 24/26.
Roy

Roy,

Its a clear case of boxes for courses. Most Scottish players wouldnt entertain anything other than window smashing musette tuning, but as Paul says they like it strong in Amsterdam too. I know, as my wifes cousin sometimes works in a bar there where they have music like this. 



Johnny Meijer was a jazz player, but amsterdamse musette helped to pay the bills!



You wouldnt think it was the same box!

 

[Shand79MorinoMan]

John, It all depends on who you get to tune your box. Mime is soft and sweet soundingwithout bursting you eardrums.
I know a lot of the modern Italian boxes are tune and sound very, very hard on the luggs.
Roy.

 

[maugein96]

John, It all depends on who you get to tune your box. Mime is soft and sweet soundingwithout bursting you eardrums.
I know a lot of the modern Italian boxes are tune and sound  very, very hard on the luggs.
Roy.

Hi Roy,

I don't know quite why the Italians have decided to go for strong musette in recent years, but as you say a lot of their boxes sound pretty rough. In earlier days if they got up to about 18 cents some of the listeners might raise an eyebrow. The Bolognese Filuzzi players possibly hiked it above that, but they were nothing like the guy in the clip I posted. 

Years ago I remember reading an article in the French media entitled "Kings of the Out of Tune Accordion." They were referring to the MMM musette tuned boxes played by Verchuren, Larcange, and others. At one time those out of tune accordions were the most popular in France, but the influence of jazz and gypsy music in French accordion had the effect of taming the tunings to the point where 8 cents is now considered "standard" French tuning with two banks of MM reeds. It was generally agreed that three voices were sufficient for the French style and replacing the lower M reeds with a bassoon bank added variety of tone. LMM therefore became the standard French box after a time. 

I wouldn't like to make that suggestion to Scottish players, and the only pro player I've ever heard playing Scottish tunes on a "straight" tuned box was the late Chrissie Leatham. She appears to have got away with that, but I'd be willing to bet there would have been one or two objections. I know Phil Cunningham sometimes uses different register combinations, but he isn't your typical Scottish player. 

Maybe if you told the Italians where you got your box tuned our ears would be saved. 

 

[Tom]

I think the musette in my new Italian cordeens is very sweet but please don't ask me how many cents!

 

[maugein96]

I think the musette in my new Italian cordeens is very sweet but please dont ask me how many cents!

Hi Tom,

Most accordions with musette tuning for the Italian market are/were pretty sweet sounding, although there are always exceptions to the rule. I got into listening to Italian accordions pretty late so cannot give any real indication as to tuning differences over the years. 

There are quite a few players who scarcely make use of the musette register, if their instrument has it at all. 

Here is a very young Barbara Lucchi (complete with stand). She has her coupler selector on master and her instrument would appear to be a swing tuned LMM (no musette). These days she plays a Piermaria LMM with tone chamber, and I dont think Ive ever heard her play an accordion with MMM reeds in it. She was a pupil of the late Carlo Venturi who played a version of Filuzzi



By way of contrast here is Giuseppe Santamaria playing a PA (brand name ByMarco) which has a strong but pleasant sounding MMM musette tuning. I would guess his tuning to be round about 18 cents, or possibly even getting up towards 20 cents. 

 

[Dingo40]

John,
Thanks for the links.
Regarding Barbara Lucchi, isn’t it amazing how young ladies’ fingering is in no way hindered by wearing rings or having significantly long fingernails ?

 

[debra]

I think the musette in my new Italian cordeens is very sweet but please don't ask me how many cents!

Only the person who ordered the accordion from the factory can tell you how many cents. Factories will do whatever you ask, basically anywhere from completely dry (0  cents) to  around 30 cents.
The "default" tuning in Italian accordions 50 years ago was with a much stronger tremolo than it is now. An MMM register would be at least -20/0/+20 but more likely with 22 to 24 cents. New accordions now are more likely between 12 and 16 cents  (MMM then  being -12/0/+12 to -16/0/+16).
Personally I am liking MM with 12 cents tremolo a lot, whereas about 10 years abo that would still have been 16 cents. Note that to give the same subjective effect a cassotto instrument needs to have different tuning. When I tune a cassotto piano accordion the white keys have about 1 cent more tremolo than the black keys, because the reed block for the white keys is deepest in the cassotto. (The notes for white keys and black keys sound differently on a cassotto PA, and you have to take into account that often at least one white key, sometimes 2 or 3,  has the reeds on the black key block and thus needs to be tuned differently.

 

[Tom]

Wow, thanks for that. I ordered the accordions without saying anything so they must be factory spec.

 

[maugein96]

John,
Thanks for the links.
Regarding Barbara Lucchi, isn’t it amazing how young ladies’ fingering is in no way hindered by wearing rings or having significantly long fingernails ?

Dingo,

Barbara has had long fingernails for years and I honestly don't know how she manages to get much accuracy at all. I remember trying to convert to fingerstyle guitar when I was also playing the accordion, and it just didn't work. The nails had to be cut and the guitar given away, end of story. 

You'll see the treble couplers at the rear of the keyboard. The top coupler is down, which is the master setting. The bottom coupler serves the same purpose, and the other combinations are usually at the discretion of the maker. 

Most three voice instruments in the configuration she is playing have 6 rear mounted couplers arranged, from top to bottom :- Master (LMM), Bassoon (L), Bandoneon (L and straight tuned M), MM in either unison, swing, or any of the recognised "musette" tunings, Clarinet (straight M), and a repeat of the master (LMM).


For players who are unfamiliar with the set up it can be difficult to get accuracy with coupler changes, especially "on the fly". One of my LMM boxes is almost completely straight tuned, and selection of MM only doubles the volume of the single M register. At times it is impossible to know whether I have M or MM selected, and you cannot look down, unless you are using a stand like Barbara's. You do get used to it, but if you regularly switch instruments it isn't easy. She hasn't used a stand for may years now.

---

Wow, thanks for that.  I ordered the accordions without saying anything so they must be factory spec.

Tom,

Worrying about the strength of musette tuning is a fascinating sideline of we Europeans. We all like to think we have our own distinct varieties, but the reality is only the tuner will know what he's turning out. 

I read somewhere that German tuning (nominally 14 cents) is the type normally found in the US. Personally, I find that to be the most pleasant of the musette tunings, but most of my countrymen would find it far too tame. 

"Standard" Italian musette is quoted by some as 18 cents, but you'll never get two accordions with exactly the same musette tuning.

---

Wow, thanks for that.  I ordered the accordions without saying anything so they must be factory spec.

Tom,

Worrying about the strength of musette tuning is a fascinating sideline of we Europeans. We all like to think we have our own distinct varieties, but the reality is only the tuner will know what he's turning out. 

I read somewhere that German tuning (nominally 14 cents) is the type normally found in the US. Personally, I find that to be the most pleasant of the musette tunings, but most of my countrymen would find it far too tame. 

"Standard" Italian musette is quoted by some as 18 cents, but you'll never get two accordions with exactly the same musette tuning.

 

[HiTechBiniou]

Here is a try... to explain...
The main thing to remember as for Italians playing musette, they mostly use the LMM or LMMM (with always the bassoon engaged or the MASTER switch) which make the sound pretty corny and fat.
Real musette whether it be slow beating modern musette MM with only 1.5 beats/sec or the old musette MMM with 6 beats/sec NEVER USE THE BASSOON.
Nailed, screwed reed plate will always sound brighter than waxed plates.
I only have a French Accordion Guide but you can check this French video at 3:40 to see the reed plate movement that occurs when it is fixed with wax as opposed to a tighter fix with nails/screws

There is less energy loss when the reed plate is solidly fixed with nails and screws. The reed can then work 100% at varying the air input.
Sorry for my English.
The sound source of the accordion is what we call a FORMANT. The reed dont transmit any sound or energy to the body of the accordion, the body of the reed block, etc.
Now lets see why an aluminum reedblock would be more efficient and sound better than the usual wooden reedblock.
This is because all the elements that are part of the sound source must be securely fixed to avoid loss of energy. Therefore, an aluminum reedblock would be more efficient in terms of sound because it is more rigid and stable than the wooden reedblock. There would be less loss of mechanical energy.
Buy is this hard to convey in English.
Remember that the body of your box could be made out of any matter (material) The box body contribute to 0% of the sound of your accordion. It is the inside volume that counts (formant)
No time to explain the alvéole or the reedblock cavity... maybe another time, I need to sleep.

 

[Dingo40]

Thank you Paul thats certainly another interesting point to add to the equation... So much to consider.. Best let the ears and not the brain make the choice...

Hi Terry,

You may remember I put on a few posts about the French style CBAs they still play in and around Emilia Romagna. The boxes look very French, often with 4 rows of small French sized treble buttons, treble couplers mounted on the rear of the keyboard, and stepped mushroom bass buttons. The makes (past and present) include Stocco, Ropa, Excelsior, ByMarco, Lucchini, Fratelli Crosio, and your beloved Piermaria. 

However, when they play them the waxed reeds give a more typical Italian grunt to the tone, so regardless of what the boxes look like they sound Italian (to me).

Massimo Dellabianco plays Italian musette in the style of the late Carlo Venturi, and I cannot tell whether his Stocco has waxed or pinned reeds. I read somewhere that Stocco usually wax the reeds, but I wouldnt put money on this one. As I say I had played Cavagnolos and Maugeins with pinned reeds for about 15 years before I discovered that most makers used wax.  

John,
Very nice clip: astonishing virtuosity and pleasing tone!

 

[debra]

Here is a try... to explain...
...

The video is very interesting. Many thanks!
The video ends with the message that the accordion will be happier when it is places/stored in the playing position (not on its feet). Finally some source that confirms what I have been saying all along and which has been met with disbelief, even by accordion makers.

As to whether reeds are more tightly connected to the reed blocks in the French accordions (gasket + nails) than in Italian ones (wax, sometimes also with nails, most of the time without)... I'm not convinced. When you have good, not too old wax the reed plates connect very well to the reed block. When the wax gets old and brittle you can sometimes hear the wax not holding the reed properly (the reed not only goes out of tune but you start hearing additional noises). Nails may prevent the reed plates from falling out completely but do not really contribute to sound transmission from reed plate to reed block. In the accordions with gasket + nails the gasket actually allows the reed plates to vibrate slightly, and I believe the transmission to the reed block is actually less. Having a much larger, thicker, more solid reed plate would help. For this reason on the bass side some accordions already use a single large reed plate for multiple notes, and in Russian bayans all reeds are on such larger plates.

Having worked on both a French accordion (with gasket + nails) a and Russian bayan (gasket + hooks on large reed plates), besides many Italian accordions with wax, I can definitely tell you that getting the tuning to "stay" (stable) is harder with the gasket type. Some notes on the French accordion went considerably out of tune after just a few months of playing, presumably because of less grip of the nails. On the bayan the precise level of seal is also important (I mark the position of the hooks before undoing them) but the bayan also has a problem of being more susceptible to a slight variation in resistance from the leather valves. But that's a completely different story.

 

[oldbayan]

As to whether reeds are more tightly connected to the reed blocks in the French accordions (gasket + nails) than in Italian ones (wax, sometimes also with nails, most of the time without)... I'm not convinced. When you have good, not too old wax the reed plates connect very well to the reed block.

Wax will always be "elastic" compared to a nail! I have seen many reed blocks using both, in which case the wax acts like a gasket. With wax only, as explained in the video, the plates will never really be steady. It's a lot easier to install reed plates with wax only, but for the long run and performance, nails seem to be the way to go 

Also for tuning individual reed plates, the nail on leather gasket allows you to remove and re-install a plate in a breeze.

 

[debra]

...
Also for tuning individual reed plates, the nail on leather gasket allows you to remove and re-install a plate in a breeze.

Sounds attractive indeed, but actually, for tuning an accordion the reed plates need to be nailed in, on the reed block, and the reed block inside the accordion in order to get a meaningful result from measuring the frequency. (And for really precise tuning the accordion even needs to be in the playing orientation. When you take off the reed plate, do nothing, and then nail it back on the tuning may already be off. So to tune a French accordion you should really avoid taking off the reed plates to do the scratching and filing involved in tuning. (On a bayan you cannot always do this because a lot of the reeds cannot be pulled through without bending them out of shape, so you do need to remove the multi-reed reed plate, and putting it back with precisely the same hook position is critical to avoid unwanted tuning changes.)

 

[donn]

The experiment should be easy enough, non? Just find some reeds off the same accordion, attach some with wax and the others with nails, and then see if anyone can tell which is which.

I'm glad mine are nailed, because nails seem more durable to me, certainly less sensitive to temperature. But removing and re-attaching ... I've wondered about that, since each time the nail would seem to be doing some damage to the wood, such that the next nail may not have the purchase that was expected.

 

[oldbayan]

Sounds attractive indeed, but actually, for tuning an accordion the reed plates need to be nailed in, on the reed block, and the reed block inside the accordion in order to get a meaningful result from measuring the frequency.

You are correct, but sometimes when dealing with really out of tune reeds, that need filing and cleaning, it's better to take them out first, do basic tuning on a bench, then re-install on the reed block for final adjustments.

 

[HiTechBiniou]

Here is a try... to explain...
...

The video is very interesting. Many thanks!
The video ends with the message that the accordion will be happier when it is places/stored in the playing position (not on its feet). Finally some source that confirms what I have been saying all along and which has been met with disbelief, even by accordion makers.

As to whether reeds are more tightly connected to the reed blocks in the French accordions (gasket + nails) than in Italian ones (wax, sometimes also with nails, most of the time without)... Im not convinced. When you have good, not too old wax the reed plates connect very well to the reed block. When the wax gets old and brittle you can sometimes hear the wax not holding the reed properly (the reed not only goes out of tune but you start hearing additional noises). Nails may prevent the reed plates from falling out completely but do not really contribute to sound transmission from reed plate to reed block. In the accordions with gasket + nails the gasket actually allows the reed plates to vibrate slightly, and I believe the transmission to the reed block is actually less. Having a much larger, thicker, more solid reed plate would help. For this reason on the bass side some accordions already use a single large reed plate for multiple notes, and in Russian bayans all reeds are on such larger plates.

Having worked on both a French accordion (with gasket + nails) a and Russian bayan (gasket + hooks on large reed plates), besides many Italian accordions with wax, I can definitely tell you that getting the tuning to stay (stable) is harder with the gasket type. Some notes on the French accordion went considerably out of tune after just a few months of playing, presumably because of less grip of the nails. On the bayan the precise level of seal is also important (I mark the position of the hooks before undoing them) but the bayan also has a problem of being more susceptible to a slight variation in resistance from the leather valves. But thats a completely different story.

Thank you Paul for your kind words.

You did NOT understand the formant principle I explain (in French) in my accordion guide.

First, there is NO ENERGY/SOUND TRANSMISSION FROM PLATE TO REEDBLOCK WHATSOEVER.
Same as there is no energy/sound transmission from reed to plate.

Please read the next post where I try to translate the video...

---

Here is a translation of the video content starting at 1:50 

The reedblock does not amplify the sound produced by the reed. As proof, the tuning fork is not amplified when pressed on the reedblock.
But the reedblock do transmits the mechanical vibration of the tuning fork when it is brought into contact with an amplification surface.
The reed has no mechanical energy unlike the tuning fork and therefore, it has nothing to transmit to the amplification surface.  
Notice when I blow in the reedblock at 2:15, same sound when no contact with the surface as when in contact with the surface unlike the tuning fork that has energy to transmit.  

The sound is produced inside the sound hole, not by the mechanical energy of the reed itself.

Why does the reed have no energy?
Because it is not the mechanical source like the tuning fork.
The reed is part of the whole plate/reed/sound holes system.
And this is what we call a FORMANT.
The reed is only used to produce the pressure variation and the speed of air intake to produce sound.

Now lets see why an aluminum reedblock would be more efficient and produce a better sound than the usual wooden reedblock:
This is because all the elements that are part of the sound source must be securely fixed to avoid loss of energy. Therefore, an aluminum reedblock would be more efficient in terms of sound because it is more rigid and stable than the wooden reedblock. There would be less loss of mechanical energy.

Movement of the reedplate if it is NOT SOLIDLY FIXED
Here is an animation (see the video...) to illustrate the movement of the plate in slow motion if it is not securely attached to the reedblock.
This movement do occur in waxed reed plates so the oscillation of the reed itself will loose energy and produce a poorer sound with less harmonics (overtones).

Even the reedblocks move with the movement of bigger reeds.  This is why we use stabilizer bars that unite the top of the reedblocks together so the ensemble is more stable. 



Again, to stabilize the reedblock, bars of reedblocks are installed which mechanically unite the heads of the reedblocks.
The red arrow show where the reedblocks can move if not stabilized by bars.





The bayan accordion sound richer (brighter, more overtone, more harmonics, etc.) than the Italian accordion because of the multiple reeds united in a single long plate.  The whole thing is more rigid so the reeds do their job without any disturbance or loss of energy.

As for the Italian accordions that sometimes sound richer and brighter even when waxed, please visit my Castelfidardo page

https://en.mariobruneau.com/castelfidardo/ 

You will see that I have conducted some kind of research to find the richer musette sound and as you can witness, the second richest sound came from an Italian waxed accordion byMarco.  This is because not all wax are created equal.  The wax use in byMarco is harder than regular accordion waxes thus a richer sound.

 

[debra]

...

---

---

Sorry about some misunderstandings. I did understand the formant principle. I commented on the issue whether or not the French style of gasket and nails for the reed plates immobilizes the reed plates better than wax. Your page mentions that Cavagnolo started using a nail plus screws to immobilize the reed plates (almost?) directly on the reed block, without a gasket that still allows the reed plate to move. My own experience working on a French style accordion (a Piermaria to be exact) was that a gasket plus nails did not really immobilize the reed plate enough to get 100% consistent tuning results. Screws as used by Cavagnolo may be better.

I fully understand that the reed block does not transmit or amplify sound. What I'm saying is that if the reed plate is not fully immobilized it not only weakens the sound and/or changes the strength of the harmonics but it also influences the tuning. As an accordion tuner that's a problem. I'm not a fan of the French style sound so I would not buy this type of accordion, but as a repairer I need to be able to tune these accordions and achieve good and consistent results.

It would be interesting to hear what an accordion would sound like with aluminium reed blocks and reed plates welded onto them so they are 100% guaranteed to be immobile. Unfortunately this would likely make the accordion unacceptably heavy and expensive.

I also agree that the size and shape of the resonance chambers in the reed blocks is important as they need to correspond to the desired frequency of the reeds. I believe accordion makers do not really do the math to have the proper exact size. They do play with the shape of the chambers to produce their own desired sound (like making the reed blocks more rectangular or more trapezoidal in shape) but seem to not study the size/shape versus resonance properly.  You studied the issues much more carefully and found interesting differences between accordions of different brands. Obviously how the reed plates are mounted matters, and the type of wax or gasket matters. But the size and shape of the resonance chambers also matters. Everything combines in such an intricate way that I think we are not even close to fully understanding why each accordion sounds the way it does.