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MIDI Conversion

TW

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I've amended the text on the clips to read that my observations were of a normal condition.

This is my 5th Roland...will I never learn to read the manual...?
'Hold down the button until the indications in the display disappear.
Release your finger, and the power will turn off.'
 

JerryPH

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TW said:
The accordion arrived unmarked and plays very well but for....
  1. intermittent and unpredictable failure to switch off (always switches on) whether battery or mains powered
  2. a rather wiggly battery pack to accordion cable connector.
I am probably going to return it as 'faulty' - even though it was not really 'Dead on Arrival'.
What would members do in these circumstances?
Was this a new or used unit?

The wiggly battery pack plug is not major, but definitely would annoy me... more importantly, that power switch not working would bother the heck out of me, and yes in my opinion it is grounds for return.  This is not a good sign, its not a defective switch, but something potentially deeper.
I'd call them up and show them the 2 videos you made and see what they say.

Sorry to see that you are having these issues.
 

TW

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Thanks for the commiseration JerryPH but the 'switch off problem' in the 4X was of my own making...and was resolved - in an earlier post in this thread - by Alan Sharkis.
The instrument is fine.....the operator obviously is less competent.. :blush: .
 

JerryPH

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Well heck, I must be getting old or somethng... lol
Glad to see that everything is as it should be for you!

I think I know why they integrated the need for a good long press... probably at some point, someone told them that while in the heat of playing they wanted to change something, fast-pressed the power button and turned off the accordion. That would be rather funny, IMHO.

The only time I need to hold a button on the 8X, as a normal process, is to begin the charge cycle. One has to press and hold the charge button as it flashes until it glows solid, letting you know the charging cycle has begun. A quick press of the off/on button on the 8X will either turn it off or on. The location of the button is so far away from the rest of the functions, I cannot ever see myself making that mistake, and its never happened to me, so I think I am safe.

Another minor difference between the two, I suppose. :)

I love happy endings... lol
 

n9yty

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JerryPH said:
TW said:
The accordion arrived unmarked and plays very well but for....
  1. intermittent and unpredictable failure to switch off (always switches on) whether battery or mains powered
  2. a rather wiggly battery pack to accordion cable connector.
I am probably going to return it as 'faulty' - even though it was not really 'Dead on Arrival'.
What would members do in these circumstances?
Was this a new or used unit?

The wiggly battery pack plug is not major, but definitely would annoy me... more importantly, that power switch not working would bother the heck out of me, and yes in my opinion it is grounds for return.  This is not a good sign, its not a defective switch, but something potentially deeper.
I'd call them up and show them the 2 videos you made and see what they say.

Sorry to see that you are having these issues.

For what it is worth, I thought I broke my battery connector when I discovered it was wiggling. Then I received confirmation that this is by design, which in retrospect I thing is a good thing. That means the connector is not directly attached to a circuit board, so if I do put force on it while disconnecting or connecting a pack, I am not going to damage anything as it is designed to have a lot of ‘play’ in it.

I picked up some extra battery packs on eBay, and some of those connectors (from a computer power supply) and actually snipped off the little plastic retaining clip so that they just slide on. I believe the pressure applied by the battery door will keep anything from coming loose, and haven’t had any problems. It sure makes switching out the packs a lot easier.
 

TW

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JerryPH - I'm happy about it too...and take your point about occidentally switching the whole thing off if the switch was too sensitive..

n9yty - Glad to have further confirmation that wiggling is by design....but I don't understand "snipped off the little plastic retaining clip so that they just slide on" relating to your spare packs.
I have only fitted the battery pack once however...
 

JerryPH

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Now, personally, that is something that I would never suggest, as it would promote random unpluggings and power loss, however what he means is that on the plug that pushes in to the socket of the accordion at the battery pack, there is a small tab that helps keep that plug on so it doesn't fall out and disconnect. He is suggesting that you remove that small plastic tab by snipping it off so there is less tension when removing it and installing it.
 

TW

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Thanks for the clarification of n9yty's modification....I don't think it is anything  I would do in any case.

I either don't disconnect - as I can load the pack without removing it (or the chest protector) - or use the snap-on terminals to free the pack.
 

n9yty

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I understand, Jerry, but the plug itself is quite a firm connection, and as I say, the wiring up above it, with the pressure from the foam on the backplate, holds things quite secure. Never had it come loose during transport or playing, but I play seated, I'm not jostling it around a lot. But to each their own, I simply wanted to mention it because the little plug is a bit of a pain to get loose otherwise. If you aren't switching battery packs in full, though, there is no point in doing this. If you also have the "official" battery pack, or one that has a snap-on 9V connector, then maybe you would choose to disconnect at that point instead and also would not be interested in this mod. But it works very well for me and has never caused a problem.
 

torch

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TW pid=69390 dateline=1579105341 said:
I had assumed Limex was still my suppliers treatment of choice however the quotation was in fact for Blue Line Midi.
The cost for treble and bass (on a 34/96) with bellow sensor being £850 + Mute coupler on treble and bass £60
As I remarked, 1/3 the UK 4X cost (£2791 from a discounter).

in respect of my original simple question, any previous digital experience was not relevant to the query.
I saw this thread and Corintos thread on midi conversion just now.   How do you like the Blueline midi system?  I understand it has key velocity but it doesnt work too well.   I also learned that you can assign bellow cc11 as normal or bellow to velocity.   Does that work pretty good?  None of my midi accordions has velocity, but I know I can use my Sipario to covert cc11 to velocity but I havent tried it out yet. 

One of my V accordions is the FR4x, which has some issues with velocity levels (when connected to external modules or VST plug-ins).   Bass/chords are too hot and the treble in accordion mode is  too weak.   I can adjust bass/chords velocity somewhat by different playing styles, but the treble in accordion mode is really problematic.   I met the Roland project manager at NAMM when the the 4x was introduced and mentioned the issue to him.  He said that if I write to him, he would forward it to the Japanese engineers.  Well, no firmware update yet.  I use a MIDI app to deal with the velocity issue, but it would be much better if Roland would address the issue.  

  
 

TW

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I'm trying a 4X at present - trying to decide whether or not to keep it (rather than midi-ing my acoustic) - so didn't implement the blueline.

JerryPH started me re-thinking the convenience of another Roland - vs MIDI + the undoubted more hassle of the Sipario+Triangle.

The jury therefore is still out on fitting midi - so blame JerryPH for loosing the cat among my particular set of pigeons... :)
 

torch

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TW said:
I'm trying a 4X at present - trying to decide whether or not to keep it (rather than midi-ing my acoustic) - so didn't implement the blueline.

JerryPH started me re-thinking the convenience of another Roland - vs MIDI + the undoubted more hassle of the Sipario+Triangle.

The jury therefore is still out on fitting midi - so blame JerryPH for loosing the cat among my particular set of pigeons... :)
[quote pid='69975' dateline='1581988529']
I agree to Jerry's reasoning; I think you made the right choice unless you must have real reeds in your box.   Most of the V models are practical and gig-friendly.    I don't know if you read my recent post on the velocity issues with the 4x when driving external sounds - be it hardware or software.  Let me be quick to point out, though, that the Desktop arranger by V3 Sound has a setting to deal with the velocity issue.  Also, I found out that my Ketron modules and arranger module such as the SD4, SD1000, and SD40 must be translating bellow dynamics into velocity.  So the issue is "solved."  However, the weak velocity in treble accordion mode" becomes a problem with other modules and VST plug-ins.   I can use the Sipario or software to boost velocity, but I am hoping that Roland, Japan will come up with a firmware to address the issue.  

I had an almost brand new Weltmeister.  I thought it would make a great MIDI controller and I was considering the Blueline.  
[/quote]
 

TW

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This is an addendum to the lengthy thread 'MIDI Conversion' in January where I asked for advice about MIDI conversion.

In the end I was happy to be persuaded by the cogent arguments of JerryPH and others that a midi conversion had drawbacks and so continued down the Roland path that I had followed since 2005 and bought an FR 4X PA to supplement my FR 1X CBA.

Six months later, and even with Richard Noel programming, I find that I am using the 4X to drive the V3sound  Triangle (with Sonority UK Special) because of the vastly better sounds for the Scottish styles that I prefer.

I have acquired a versatile and sophisticated accordion but for me - with hindsight and my limited musical requirements - perhaps a MIDI conversion would have made better sense?

I still don't know the answer to my original query so can a member advise me whether silencing an acoustic (on treble and bass sides) allows 'normal' bellows feel?
The MIDI vendor says 'you will get used to it, it's a bit like a Roland'!

I'm grateful for all the past views offered.
 

Corinto

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Here and now, my MIDI LUCIA has been very useful during this unwanted lockdown, very useful. And it has been paid with the savings of the practice room rent I don't need anymore. So I'm 100% satisfied.

In my case, bellows feel is almost the same on the MIDI LUCIA compared with the ACOUSTIC LUCIA, and yes there is some minimal difference but I don't find the words to describe it, and it doesn't interfere anything practical. It may just be a little different as it may be between two similar acoustic accordions, I should say.

Sometime in the future I will get this V3 SOUND TRIANGLE, maybe next year ... maybe.

Of course, feelings are so personal, so ymmv ...
 

JIM D.

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With a new MiDi conversion you really must weigh the difference in the price of the conversion with the purchase of a
new or used "V" accordion. Now with a MiDi conversion you will first of all ad the price of the conversion, An exander, And an amp to power the expander. Then figure to value of your accordion in original shape with the same box than has been altered with the conversion. The resale price will be in all cases be reduced. Now 20 years ago a MiDi conversion was
the only way of an accordion user to apply for expanding the sounds of an accordion. (Including Myself).
Well times have changed and with the introduction of "V" accordions. Accordionist's today forgo the cost of a MiDi conversion with it's needed accessories to the purchase of a new or used "V" model box. He now has an original unaltered acoustic and a digital box with all it's uses. The best of both worlds.
 

debra

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JIM D. said:
With a new MiDi conversion you really must weigh the difference in the price of the conversion with the purchase of a
new or used "V" accordion.  Now with a MiDi conversion you will first of all ad the price of the conversion, An exander, And an amp to power the expander. Then figure to value of your accordion in original shape with the same box than has been altered with the conversion. The resale price will be in all cases be reduced.   Now 20 years ago a MiDi conversion was
the only way of an accordion user to apply for expanding the sounds of an accordion. (Including Myself).
   Well times have changed and with the introduction of "V" accordions. Accordionist's today forgo the cost of a MiDi conversion with it's needed accessories to the purchase of a new or used "V" model box. He now has an original unaltered acoustic and a  digital box with all it's uses. The best of both worlds.

It's even better than the best of both worlds, when the accordion sound of the V accordion is optimized to really replace the acoustic sound. Because a midi-converted acoustic accordion used as acoustic when you want accordion sound is still an accordion that requires tuning...
 

JIM D.

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The amplification of my post was very appreciated.
Thank's Paul
 

TW

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Corinto, thank you for your last post which was most useful in describing bellows action in the case of your 'no reed' instrument as much the same as its acoustic fellow.
It reinforced your original post so perhaps I'm fretting too much about the bellows effect in a bilaterally muted midi converted acoustic.

While my 4X makes a perfectly adequate driver for Sonority it means that I choose to disregard the many options available to a player with a different, less limited, set of requirements.
My choice!
 

JIM D.

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Just to keep on my previous thread,
A converted acoustic accordion to MiDi usually uses an expander that has the ability to transpose.
The transpose feature can be very useful in the case of a vocalist that only sings in keys you haven't learned tunes
on. Such as Db, F# or C# for example. Now the expander can be transposed but the acoustic accordion will remain
in the key it was produced with. The result is The acoustic accordion will have to be muted.
With a "V" type accordion the accordion voices transpose with the orchestral sounds.
 

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