Korg FISA SUPREMA

[KeysFla]

Let's make a big distinction... I don't have a connection to them, I have their ear, big difference.
Also, let's make it clear that unless anyone gives me the superpower to speak for them or share THEIR words, I am sharing my opinion.


I agree that it is good to know how to fix your instrument at least to some extent, but we are not talking an acoustic box. This is a very technical, electrical, digital product. How many people who ever are going to buy one are qualified to take it apart, and if they do AND its under warranty, but because they feel they can fix something in the field, but then break it further, what are the expectations of who pays for that?

IMHO, if something is under warranty, the ONLY person that should be poking around in there should be the manufacturer of that unit, be it a FISA, plane, train, automobile or calvarium drill... lol


Again, my response is "you don't, your qualified tech can and should".


I am 100% sure that someone "not FISA qualified" already has, and to a surprising extent, however, do they want to share that info? That would be up to them.


Again, goes to qualification and ability... just because I can read schematics, does not make me capable of similar things, FISA or otherwise.


Yeah... I am looking at it from both sides, KORG's and yours. Both are valid, ultimately, it goes back to qualification/ability. This is up to KORG and what they decide to release. The papers from the Roland boxes were not publically released, someone there leaked them. I am sure that put a frown on someone at Roland at that time too.


Disagree. First off, these are digital/electronics, there is no day to day maintenance needed. Things work... until they don't. The terms "field serviceable" and "digital accordions" should not be used in the same sentance... lol

That said, I don't need to know how to design a an engine head spring to have confidence that my Corvette will start tomorrow morning. Similar example, when the 1999-2002 Corvettes came out, they came out from the factory with heads with weak springs and if some owners were over enthusiastic, those springs broke, usually with the added bonus of taking the entire engine with it.

Chevrolet dealerships received the cars, replaced the engines AND made sure better quality springs were included. The customers were not given the 900 page report of how the springs were designed, how to take everything apart in a specific oder, what to replace and how to do it, they did it and the customer got to drive home their fixed 'Vette once completed.

Now, how KORG wants to play it, this may be completely different and they may turn around tomorrow and do exactly as you ask of themselves, but I have my doubts that this will ever happen. The last thing any manufacturer wants is to give instructions how to take their products apart just because they need some sense of confidence in the product, no matter what, confidence is something that is earned over time and continued use of a product.

I will never be the person that tells someone how to run their business internally.

Now, there is that question that I read above of 100% reliability... I'll get to that in a separate post later. Right now I have an accordion calling out my name wanting some attention.

The main thing is be careful with your usb ports and audio ports they are very fragile. Like me I picked up my Korg arranger and forgot to disconnect the usb plug. It ripped the connector off the cpu board. Very fine solder job. I sent my board out to a company that can do that kind of work. It cost me 150$ verses $700 for a new cpu board.

 

[jozz]

The main thing is be careful with your usb ports and audio ports they are very fragile. Like me I picked up my Korg arranger and forgot to disconnect the usb plug. It ripped the connector off the cpu board. Very fine solder job. I sent my board out to a company that can do that kind of work. It cost me 150$ verses $700 for a new cpu board.

a reason I'm still in love with the typical Allen & Heath design
most of the time dedicated subboards in stead of a motherboard, and pots/controls and I/O secured to the chassis

 

[debra]

...

IMHO, if something is under warranty, the ONLY person that should be poking around in there should be the manufacturer of that unit, be it a FISA, plane, train, automobile or calvarium drill... lol

...

I absolutely agree 100% on this. I generally refuse to touch anything (other than for normal use) that's still under warranty. That includes acoustic accordions. I only touch an acoustic accordion that's under warranty after getting permission to do so from the dealer who is responsible for honoring that warranty. (And so far I always got that permission.)
But as for getting a digital accordion, the warranty in the EU is 2 years, but I intend to use the instrument for at least the next 15 years, so having at least something like a service manual would be very helpful.
Long ago I had a Roland (high-end) digital piano, with flimsy microswitches inside that would fail often. I kept a strip of microswitches handy to replace the once that broke. I needed to figure out how to open (and close) the piano enough to reach the pcb with the microswitches in order to replace them...

 

[JerryPH]

I wanted to touch on the reliability topic.
People want absolute 100% reliability, but:
- no one mentions for how long… 1-2 years? 10? 20? Lifetime?
- we sadly live in a “short life, dispose of and replace” world today
- Shit happens (pardon my French… lol)

Sure, no question that we all would love to demand for and get 100% reliability. If you pay your hard earned cash, you expect it to work as advertised. We also would like it to last for as long as we own it.

Sadly, nothing lasts forever and we don’t live in a perfect world, things happen, humans make errors as we are not perfect, but we tend to stand up, brush off the dirt and put a bandage on the odd bruised knee and move on. In the process, hopefully learn something new and fix/improve on something so that it doesn’t happen again.

Generally, we get pretty close to that too. The power board on my 8X died, factory error, cost me nothing to get it replaced even if I was the 2nd owner and out of warranty, but I did have to drive over 1200km and take a day off work to get it fixed. I was also fortunate that they had the parts in stock. I’ve had my 8X now an incredible 8+ years (thats pretty amazing, as 9 years ago, at that point in my life, I had not played for DECADES and lost my father). It works well, and the 2nd factory battery is already showing signs of shorter durations. Life is good.

Some things last a long time, but people replace them often… we have no issues paying $2000 or more dollars a year FOR A CELLPHONE, only to replace it when the next model comes out (meh, my S21 Ultra has served me well for the last 4 years and is going strong, so I am good there).

The point is, reality dictates that sometimes we get that reliability but it’s never a100% certainty. In life it’s not always going to follow wants, promises or expectations, because shit happens, so we deal with it and move on. Crying about it or shaking your fist won’t change anything.

What does make a difference is calm understanding that things happen and opening a dialogue to address the issue starts asap. Sometimes that solution is done fast, sometimes that is done slow… but it should happen. If not, the fastest way to permanently resolve things is to vote with your wallets.

Would I be mad if I owned a broken FISA? Yes. Would I be disappointed? Most definitely. I would also be seeing if the company is moving as fast as it can to address it (which they are), and deal with it as needed.

Not a pro gigging musician? Play your other box for now., enjoy life. Oh, you are a paid gigging professional? What are you doing NOT having a backup plan? Maybe a great time to get a Plan-B in to place before this happens, and it’s always a a when, not an if. Expect the best, but plan for the worst, that’s the motto of a professional.

Just my 2 cents. Calm discussion with the right people is preferable over burning people at the stake… lol

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

I absolutely agree 100% on this. I generally refuse to touch anything (other than for normal use) that's still under warranty. That includes acoustic accordions. I only touch an acoustic accordion that's under warranty after getting permission to do so from the dealer who is responsible for honoring that warranty. (And so far I always got that permission.)
But as for getting a digital accordion, the warranty in the EU is 2 years, but I intend to use the instrument for at least the next 15 years, so having at least something like a service manual would be very helpful.
Long ago I had a Roland (high-end) digital piano, with flimsy microswitches inside that would fail often. I kept a strip of microswitches handy to replace the once that broke. I needed to figure out how to open (and close) the piano enough to reach the pcb with the microswitches in order to replace them...

Just a short comment: in Spain, since January 2022, warranty is 3 years. It is not the same for all EU?

And regarding electronics and maintenance / repair, as I work fixing electronics, I refuse to work on gear without proper schematics and service manual. So I hope, if I ever have a digital accordion, that the technical information is available. If not, I will not be eager to buy it on the first place.

 

[Dingo40]

I’ve had my 8X now an incredible 8+ years

I have a three-in-one Panasonic AM/FM radio, tape recorder/player, CD player that's still going strong after 30+ years of daily usage.

 

[dak]

I’ve had my 8X now an incredible 8+ years (thats pretty amazing, as 9 years ago, at that point in my life, I had not played for DECADES and lost my father). It works well, and the 2nd factory battery is already showing signs of shorter durations. Life is good.

I've had my violin for more than 40 years. Had kind of an extensive repair (cover had begun sinking in) a few decades ago. It is still going quite strong. Assuming that it has been played most of its lifetime, it's now been in use for more than two centuries. In its reckoning, life is probably lacking longevity, forcing it to get used to new players over and over again.

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

I have a Panasonic AM/FM radio, tape recorder/player, CD player that's still going strong after 30+ years of daily usage.

I can talk about long lasting things... as my microwave oven, a digital PANASONIC which, at the time, was top of the line, will be next October no less than 35 years . Yes, I have done some work on it over the years, as fixing the door latch, replacing the rotating motor (was flooded), replacing several times a fuse (they are subject to stress and die) and some dish wheels repair (it is a large unit so standard ones do not fit). But, overall, about 40€ in parts and some working hours.

I love to keep gear working! (not just old accordions )

 

[debra]

I wanted to touch on the reliability topic.
People want absolute 100% reliability, but:
- no one mentions for how long… 1-2 years? 10? 20? Lifetime?
- we sadly live in a “short life, dispose of and replace” world today
- Shit happens (pardon my French… lol)

Sure, no question that we all would love to demand for and get 100% reliability. If you pay your hard earned cash, you expect it to work as advertised. We also would like it to last for as long as we own it.

Sadly, nothing lasts forever and we don’t live in a perfect world, things happen, ...

Indeed nothing has 100% reliability, but I'd be happy with 99,9%, which is about the reliability of mains power around here. Sadly, when something has 99,9% reliability you come to rely on it so much that you get very upset when it breaks. If something has say 80% reliability you are not surprised when it breaks and 1) take precautions and 2) are not very upset, just disappointed.

Shit happens, but there are differences in how to do the "cleanup"... I'm used to do my own repairs on accordions. It makes me feel uneasy not to be able to do that with digital. (And I know digital breaks. Several issues already with digital pianos.)
And I always state "You can never have too many backups." but when I go to perform I tend to go by car, not by truck. So I do not have my backups with me... I can only hope that the people who expect me to perform are forgiving when my gear breaks.

 

[dak]

I can talk about long lasting things... as my microwave oven, a digital PANASONIC which, at the time, was top of the line, will be next October no less than 35 years . Yes, I have done some work on it over the years, as fixing the door latch, replacing the rotating motor (was flooded), replacing several times a fuse (they are subject to stress and die) and some dish wheels repair (it is a large unit so standard ones do not fit). But, overall, about 40€ in parts and some working hours.

I love to keep gear working! (not just old accordions )

My washing machine looks a bit quaint compared to the ones next to it by other tenants. Stuff I had to replace over the years: thermostat, motor coals, drainage pump, door sealing, inlet valves, drum bearings, shock dampener. I hate operating on it. But I am not going to pay $400 for a new machine when I can make do with a $30 part replacement. It is already from a time where energy and water were considered precious resources.

In contrast, keeping the old dishwasher in my last place of living going was probably a less sound investment compared to its energy bill. It was an old Bosch, no electronics for its operating logic. Did its sequencing with clockwork and with "logic" implemented with water pipes that spilled over and drained in specific order. And the heating was just metal serpents right in the washing chamber.

 

[debra]

Just a short comment: in Spain, since January 2022, warranty is 3 years. It is not the same for all EU?

There is talk about extending warranty, but currently the EU only requires 2 years. Each country is free to add to that.

 

[JerryPH]

Indeed nothing has 100% reliability, but I'd be happy with 99,9%, which is about the reliability of mains power around here.

You are lucky. At my location, it is closer to, guessing 85-90%, we get more outages than any other area in my part of Montreal, and it’s always the same area. My only solace? My sister that lives 1km from here… if mine goes, hers goes too… lol

We have provisions, portable power, batteries, non-electrical heat source if needed. All electrical devices have components that wear out or deteriorate over time.

BTW, comparing the power grid reliability of your area to that of a digital accordion is a little humorous, just the millions of dollars invested to keep it running is likely a few dollars more than the entire investment of all digital accordions in history. If FISA had that budget and time, I bet they *might* get very close to that 99.9% value… lol

 

[JerryPH]

I have a three-in-one Panasonic AM/FM radio, tape recorder/player, CD player that's still going strong after 30+ years of daily usage.

There is always an exception to any rule, I have something similar, not daily use, but 50+ years old and works every time I need it to. One day, though, mine won’t, that is where the 2nd radio is standing in the cabinet beside it.

 

[Ventura]

some of you got the point

there can be no lingering doubt or the product is doomed

a promise will not be enough

hard evidence widely disseminated MAY be enough

in the USA tap water is potable, and safe to drink, but there
have been places and incidents and times when it was not..
those things were taken care of and safety and potability restored

but a HUGE segment of Americans now fear tap water, and will
drink NOTHING but bottled water even though they have plenty
of proof, assurances, explanations, test results, available to them,

as i said, we have pulled on our accordions with WILD ABANDON
for 100 years without a second thought..

what kind of confidence would YOU need to squeeze a Korg the same way ?

do you have that confidence today ?

what will it take for you to have that confidence restored ?

imagine 5 years from now, a Korg Fisa is offered by some estate sale
or kid posting on the Forum that they inherited their Gramp's
accordion and it looks like NEW like it has hardly been played
(yeah.. guess why)
how much would YOU offer for it (considering the risk)

oh, by the way, MOST BOTTLED WATER in the USA is
just Tap water filtered through Activated Carbon filters..
and even if you move heaven and earth trying to explain
something Humans tend to be, what, i dunno, Human ?

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

There is always an exception to any rule, I have something similar, not daily use, but 50+ years old and works every time I need it to. One day, though, mine won’t, that is where the 2nd radio is standing in the cabinet beside it.

If not already doing it, power up that second radio from time to time. I have seen over the years lots of unused electronic items going bad just by keeping them stored.

Once we are veering off-topic , let me add some advice, based on my experience, to keep electronics over the years:

-Don't leave controls for a long time on their usual working position. As an example, the volume control is better left at minimum than at the position you usually set it. That will prevent scratching noises.

-Exercise mechanical controls (potentiometers, switches, ...) from time to time. Similar idea that on previous point.

-Use contact cleaners sparingly. Excessive amounts will remove needed lubricant on potentiometers and switches. And always use zero residue type for electronics.

-Power up electronic items from time to time. Electrolytic capacitors degrade if they are not powered for long periods (similar to what happens on typical car batteries if they fully discharge)

-Store items with batteries at about 50-80% charge. Do not leave them fully charged and try to have them always with some charge. Full discharge is a bad thing for any battery.

For sure I have missed lots of things, but hope these may help someone!

 

[debra]

You are lucky. At my location, it is closer to, guessing 85-90%, we get more outages than any other area in my part of Montreal, and it’s always the same area. My only solace? My sister that lives 1km from here… if mine goes, hers goes too… lol

We have provisions, portable power, batteries, non-electrical heat source if needed. All electrical devices have components that wear out or deteriorate over time.

BTW, comparing the power grid reliability of your area to that of a digital accordion is a little humorous, just the millions of dollars invested to keep it running is likely a few dollars more than the entire investment of all digital accordions in history. If FISA had that budget and time, I bet they *might* get very close to that 99.9% value… lol

Interesting how distorted people's impressions are. If you had 90% reliability of mains power it would mean that on an average year you have no power for about 36 days, that's 36 days of 0 hours of power. I find that hard to believe. 99,99% means less than one hour without power in a year and 99,9% means less than 10 yours without power in a year.
I have been in Tanzania (at the university of Dar es Salam) for a week. The reliability of mains power there was around 90%, meaning between 2 and 3 hours without power every day.

So far, with the accordions I have, the reliability has been very very close to 100%. About 30 years ago I once had a pallet (felt+leather) fall off during a performance. It was an easy fix, but did require me to stop for 5 minutes. It's a bit like when a string fails in mid-performance on a violin. These problems are very rare. Most issues on the accordion do not stop you mid-performance and can be fixed "off-line", and while it's under repair you can use a backup instrument.
Even with electronics reliability is generally very good. Same with cars. You do occasionally see a broken-down car alongside the road, but considering how many cars there are it is very rare to have a car break down. I have never had to actually stop alongside the road for anything other than a flat tire and even that is rare (so far not once in 15 years with my current car).
You can understand that my tolerance for a digital accordion that suddenly breaks apart or that starts randomly switching to a different register is not something that I would appreciate. So let's hope these issues get solved once and for all.

 

[Tom]

I’m in that 99.9%. I lose power at least 10 hours per year. Luckily I have a generator to charge my 4x batteries. Never had an accordion fail in a gig yet, I should probably start bringing a backup.

 

[debra]

some of you got the point

...

as i said, we have pulled on our accordions with WILD ABANDON
for 100 years without a second thought..

what kind of confidence would YOU need to squeeze a Korg the same way ?

do you have that confidence today ?

what will it take for you to have that confidence restored ?

...

If they changed the design back to the bellow pins we have come to rely on, or bolts instead of pins, as found on Russian bayans (and copied on high-end Italian accordions)... Then I would have more confidence if at least these pins to into pretty solid and thick enough plastic, and not too close to the edge.

 

[Ventura]

i recall in Luxembourg visiting the old War/Holocaust museum
above the Kirk.. they had on display the old Westinghouse
Generator that was lend/leased after WW2 that they hooked
up to some waterfall nearby and was the sole source of Power
for the City and surrounding area for a helluva long time..

the luxury of having reliable power for radios and lights..
maybe even a few small Refrigerators.. even if the lights
grew dim during peak times.. they could rely upon it..

you could probably drag that thing back down to the
Waterfall in an emergency and it would still work

that is how a company and a product build confidence

here in the USA the power grid is quite reliable.. so reliable
in daily use that we the People not only have a Fridge or 2
in every home, but 33% of the households in the USA also
own a separate Freezer.. with the kind of % i am seeing in
some posts, i can only think the level of confidence in
those power grids would not inspire the kind of confidence
needed for the general population to feel safe storing
hundreds of dollars of Food in a chest freezer that might
lose power long enough and often enough to ruin the investment

no wonder irradiation was embraced in most of the world decades
before it was approved here in the USA.. we had it easy.. just
plug it in and outside of acts of God like major Hurricanes,
our food storage was safe and reliable and more than ample

 

[Tom]

i recall in Luxembourg visiting the old War/Holocaust museum
above the Kirk.. they had on display the old Westinghouse
Generator that was lend/leased after WW2 that they hooked
up to some waterfall nearby and was the sole source of Power
for the City and surrounding area for a helluva long time..

the luxury of having reliable power for radios and lights..
maybe even a few small Refrigerators.. even if the lights
grew dim during peak times.. they could rely upon it..

you could probably drag that thing back down to the
Waterfall in an emergency and it would still work

that is how a company and a product build confidence

here in the USA the power grid is quite reliable.. so reliable
in daily use that we the People not only have a Fridge or 2
in every home, but 33% of the households in the USA also
own a separate Freezer.. with the kind of % i am seeing in
some posts, i can only think the level of confidence in
those power grids would not inspire the kind of confidence
needed for the general population to feel safe storing
hundreds of dollars of Food in a chest freezer that might
lose power long enough and often enough to ruin the investment

no wonder irradiation was embraced in most of the world decades
before it was approved here in the USA.. we had it easy.. just
plug it in and outside of acts of God like major Hurricanes,
our food storage was safe and reliable and more than ample

I think that accordion playing here in the US, statistically, is more common in places where everyone has to have a generator.