Korg FISA SUPREMA

[Ventura]

lol.. i know if i had one, now that these screws are identified as
suspect, i would pop a panel or backpad and have a look at them
at least, and post a photo or 3

and of course let's not mention that a digital accordion COULD have
taken design tips from, ohh i dunno.. 100 years of testing and
accrued knowledge and just used little holes, bellows pins,
(did i mention inexpensive) instead of arrogantly going for that
all-important smooth look

 

[John M]

I went to Steve Kopaczewski’s (skopaczewski on this forum) house this past Friday to try out his Korg Fisa. This was my first chance to try out the Korg and do some comparisons to my 8X.
Below are some of my observations after checking out the new Korg Fisa.

● Overview
Selection of “sounds/tones” is quite different between the Korg and the 8X. The Korg Uses Scenes and the 8X uses UPG’s. Both have 100 Banks. The Korg has 6 Scenes per bank accessed by Scene buttons (A,B,C,D,E,F) and the 8X has 14 UPG’s per bank accessed by the 14 register buttons.

● Korg
With the Korg there are 5 “Groups” (Accordion, Organ, Orchestra, Soloist, and Synth) of “sounds/tones”. All of these “sounds/tones” are listed in the Appendix on pages 102-104 of the owner’s manual. In the “Tone List” there are 255 numbered tones. You need to be in a specific category to access certain tones. If you want to get tones like Violin, Flute, Picollo, Clarinet, Sax, Trumpet, Trombone, etc. you must be in the “Soloist” mode/category. I tried to get these tones in Orchestra mode but couldn’t – maybe there is a way.
Also, I tried to get to the tones by direct access via tone number, but I couldn’t figure that out. The Menu system on the Korg seems to be mostly “text“ driven. For example in the Strings category, the screen display has the first 8 string tones in that category labeled 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, I did not find that useful. I thought they would be labeled 0074 through 0081 as they are on page 103 of the owner’s manual. It appears you have to first select a category such as Piano, Strings, Brass, etc. These categories are “Black” highlighted on pages 102-104 of the owner’s manual.

The Korg bellows “feel/control” is great - much like an acoustic accordion.
I have my 8X set up with ”Bellows Curve” and “Resistance” very tight with very little bellows movement.

I found the Hammond B3 Drawbar Organ mode for the Korg and 8X to be very similar.

● FR-8X
With the 8X there are 3 “Groups” (Accordion, Organ, and Orchestra). Personally, I don’t see the need for 5 groups. My 8X has 305 numbered Orchestral tones. The Violin, Flute, Clarinet, Trumpet, Trombone, etc. are all in the Orchestral “Group”. For these tones, with the Korg, you have to be in the Soloist category to access these instruments. Korg has compartmentalized and split out certain tones into separate categories. With the 8X, when you are in the Orchestral Section you have access to all of the 305 tones. It is only necessary to type in any one of the 305 tones (by number). I cannot comment on the SYNTH category of the Korg as I am not into these sounds.
The big plus for me, with the 8X, is the ability to have total flexibility to select any one of the 14 registers to select a UPG. That UPG is a complete capture of most of the settings in the 8X memory (I think there are some “Global” settings that may not be included). So you can have one UPG be an Accordion tone in register 1. An Organ tone can be in register 2 and any one of the 305 Orchestral tones can be in register 3.
With the Korg, if you are in Accordion mode, the 14 register switches can only select Accordion sounds. If you want an Organ or Orchestral tone you must switch Scenes. And once your Scene is in Organ mode, the 14 register switches can only select Organ tones. Once you are in Orchestral mode, the 14 register switches can only select Orchestral tones by category. For example, to get the Clarinet tone you must be in a Scene that is in the “Soloist” mode/category.

● Bose L1Pro8
I took my Bose L1Pro8 to Steve’s house to try it out with the Korg and compare it to my 8X.
First off – The stand alone sound and volume tone of the Korg is fantastic. I can’t believe the power that comes out of the Korg. The Stereo effect is great. The only way I could get a true comparison would be to have two Bose L1Pro8 speakers to get that “stereo sound”.
However, I compared the L/Mono output signal/tone between the Korg and 8X.
Using the L1Pro8 with the Korg, I had a problem getting a reasonable amount of volume out of my L1Pro8. I don’t know if the standard output voltage is less on the Korg than the 8X, or if there are some settings on the Korg to increase the voltage output of the L/Mono Jack. I had my Bose T4S mixer between the Korg and the Bose (which I always have with my 8X). On first trial, the Korg internal speakers were overpowering the Bose. The only way I could hear the L1Pro8 was to have Steve cut his Korg speaker volume way down and for me to set the T4S input and output gains to MAX. When you “push” the gains so high, you get that characteristic – “S-h-h-h” sound out of the speaker. The signal to noise ratio was bad and that’s why the “Hiss”. I’m sure there is some setting to correct this and get a higher output signal from the Korg. I am not that familiar with the Korg interface. I was at Steve’s only for the afternoon and I was trying to find out as much as possible on the Korg during that short time.

● Weight I played both accordions sitting down and didn’t notice any difference in the weight while playing them. If I was playing standing up, I’m sure I would notice the lighter weight of the Korg.

 

[breezybellows]

On the question of the bellows straps on the Korg - they are really not necessary as when the unit is shut off
the bellows lock electronically. The problem with the treble section separating from the bellows is the plastic pins
that lock the treble section are weak and snap off.

I don't like that they designed it that way. After I turn it off and put it on the floor, the bellows become slightly open. I'll have to reach for the air button to release the air

 

[SteveBox]

On the question of the bellows straps on the Korg - they are really not necessary as when the unit is shut off
the bellows lock electronically.

What happens if you shut the instrument off with the bellows fully open?

 

[EuroFolker]

With this forum full of expert accordionists, and me still a 2nd year beginner, I can only offer an observation as a "shiny new gadget lover", and as someone who's trying hard to find an excuse to buy yet another toy, and considering the Fisa as the upgrade from FR4x.

- The main competitor, Roland FR8x, has been around for over a decade. That's an eternity to copy / emulate / improve on the existing product.
- Yet technologically, both products seem extremely similar with no stand-out / paradigm-shifting / must have feature of the Korg Fisa.
- As far as the outward appearance, and next to the competitor, the Fisa looks... crude? (matter of taste of course).
- 2 kilos is a welcome weight reduction, but... same ballpark.
- They both come from a major manufacturer, but one is more a fully in-house product than the other.

I am sure the Fisa Suprema Rev. 2, or the next model down the road will be awesome, when they figure out the glues / adhesives, brand ambassadors, firmware bugs and the other important details.

Meanwhile it's interesting what they've done with the "C" (crippled?) edition - it's just 500 grams lighter, not that much more compact, with stripped down specs, yet the C sometimes costs more than the flagship Fisa Suprema, at least in Canada right now ($9999 FS at L&M vs $10150 C at RedOne).

 

[Squeezeplay]

I think if I was to have a choice, I would go with the FR 4-X. And if I can find one at a price I can afford, will for sure,… I am becoming reasonably familiar with Roland’s way of doing things, and it works well with my Ketron arrangers. I like to play, and am not much on gadgets, and programming. The 4 -X looks easier to program than the three X
I am however into playing. And if I spend ten minutes programming, not really enjoying it…guaranteed, I will spend three hours playing, and loving it.

 

[Ventura]

The Korg bellows “feel/control” is great - much like an acoustic accordion.

hey Johnny

i couldn't help wondering though, after all this talk about the ones that
suddenly just pulled apart, did it cause you to be hesitant or extra gentle
with it ? and if this problem gets more widespread might it subconsciously
affect everyone's squeeze ? just musing.. we all have squeezed with wild abandon
all these years all these accordions..

 

[John M]

hey Johnny

i couldn't help wondering though, after all this talk about the ones that
suddenly just pulled apart, did it cause you to be hesitant or extra gentle
with it ? and if this problem gets more widespread might it subconsciously
affect everyone's squeeze ? just musing.. we all have squeezed with abandon
all these years all these accordions..

As I mentioned the volume out of those speakers is substantial, so I didn’t have to pull very hard. The serial number on Steve’s Korg was in the list of those that needed to be repaired.
S-o-o-o, a few hours after I left that evening, Steve was playing his Korg and it fell apart. I am thankful it stayed together for me to “check it out”. I really got in “Under The Wire” for my tryout.

 

[debra]

With this forum full of expert accordionists, and me still a 2nd year beginner, I can only offer an observation as a "shiny new gadget lover", and as someone who's trying hard to find an excuse to buy yet another toy, and considering the Fisa as the upgrade from FR4x.

...

The Fisa Compact is really the "upgrade" from the FR4x. The Compact may not be all that interesting to PA players but certainly is to CBA players, because the regular Fisa is just too large for a CBA, just like the FR8xb is. The "compact" should be about $1000 less expensive than the regular Fisa, so I don't know what's wrong with the numbers you saw. The CBA version is just a bit more expensive than the PA version, both for the regular and for the compact. That price difference was also there with the Roland models. I don't know why that is (except for US prices where I know that even before Trump the import tax on a CBA was higher than on a PA for reasons I never found out.

 

[Ventura]

S-o-o-o, a few hours after I left that evening, Steve was playing his Korg and it fell apart.

yeah, imagine if you were playing a Gig with one and
praying it wouldn't come apart before the last set was done..

how could that feeling NOT be inhibiting or distracting..

this still seems like a rock and a very hard place,
though the vast majority of buyers will never play a
real Gig with one

 

[Ventura]

Guys, I've been in contact with Korg

More to come soon.

hey Jerr

you have a good connection with them, so i want to
make one suggestion you might could put in their ear
before this is all over and done with

the longer this goes on, the more need for a thorough understanding
of the solution by users/buyers at the end point (my assumption)

previous, all we have are normal pretty pictures and normal expectations
of trust (from us) to the usual information/marketing.. but looking at the
normal level of info, let me ask y'all.. how would you take one apart
in an emergency if you had to ? have any pictures of the BACK of
the box even been published ? anyone out there have a clue how to
actually take one apart (without breaking something) ?

and because of this, the bug to put in their ear is that they
might consider publishing a full spread of pics and schematics
that show everyone EVERYONE how these actually physically go together
(and by extension, how easily they can be worked on at need)

think about it.. we ALL can make some spot repairs in a pinch
on accordions.. we ALL take it as a given that having some
R&R smarts about our accordions is a given.. even a necessity..

so to get confidence back, and i mean day to day don't have to
have it in the back of your mind anymore, the physical instrument
may need to be fully de-mystified to the consumer..

just a suggestion

 

[debra]

...

and because of this, the bug to put in their ear is that they
might consider publishing a full spread of pics and schematics
that show everyone EVERYONE how these actually physically go together
(and by extension, how easily they can be worked on at need)

...

Very wise words!
When I take my accordion with me for a "gig" I do not have a spare. I have my emergency repair kit with me that helps me to do a few basic repairs if needed, but in case of a catastrophic failure there is nothing I can do. So far, with any of my acoustic instruments this has not happened.
With a digital accordion there is essentially nothing I can do when I'm on the road. So it really needs to be 100% reliable. If not then I will need to always bring my acoustic instrument along as well so I can still play in case of a disaster with the digital one. But that defeats the purpose of going to digital when all I want to play are accordion sounds. And it still wouldn't work very well as it is unlikely that the digital and acoustic will have the same button size and spacing. (That's one of the downsides of playing CBA.)
So just in case something trivial happens with a digital accordion I need to know how to take it apart to have a look inside and fix something. I can fix a loose connector, but not much more than that...

 

[dak]

And it still wouldn't work very well as it is unlikely that the digital and acoustic will have the same button size and spacing. (That's one of the downsides of playing CBA.)

Uhm, since when do piano accordions have standardized key spacing?

 

[Ventura]

....So it really needs to be 100% reliable. If not then I will need to always bring my acoustic instrument along as well so I can still play in case of a disaster with the digital one.

exactly !

and even though the Roland's have proven a reasonable level of
reliability and have been gigged tens of thousands of times,
it may interest you to know MOST of the working Pro's who
have used them and relied upon them OWN 2 OF THEM

trust is earned.. it takes time.. lots of time..

 

[KeysFla]

Roland has been cutting off models in the last few years... and then this! I do not understand... I wonder where those guys from DEXIBELL came from!

Appears Dexibell just has the sound board in the Korg. Rather would see Korg own module similar to the Korg PA5x.

 

[KeysFla]

exactly !

and even though the Roland's have proven a reasonable level of
reliability and have been gigged tens of thousands of times,
it may interest you to know MOST of the working Pro's who
have used them and relied upon them OWN 2 OF THEM

trust is earned.. it takes time.. lots of time..

For a strolling accordion player, you lose the digital accordion, your gig is over.

 

[debra]

Uhm, since when do piano accordions have standardized key spacing?

Actually, with recent accordions the key spacing is pretty uniform. Pretty much all 41/120 or 37/96 accordions nowadays all have the same key width/spacing. Only when you order a special "ladies size" do you get narrower keys. And pretty much all 45/120 or 47/120 accordions also have the same key width/spacing, but over the entire length of a 41-key keyboard these accordions are about 1 key width smaller. That's it. They are all the same because accordion manufacturers do not make their keyboards from scratch but buy them from very few suppliers.
With CBA there are many button sizes, and of these there are 4 quite common sizes, from small to largest: 1) French models, realy small buttons, 2) convertor accordions, small ones with 52 notes and larger ones with 58, 61 or 64 notes all use the next size buttons, 3) compact instruments with 46 notes may use slightly larger buttons and 4) accordions that use the same case as piano accordions (like 46/120 in the same case as a 41/120 PA) and also bass accordions use the largest size buttons. The difference is really large: in the space for 4 buttons on my bass accordion the bayan fits 5 buttons. That is a significantly bigger difference than even between a regular and a ladies size PA.
Just my case: I mostly play the bass accordion (in orchestras and ensembles) so if the digital accordion that can emulate a bass accordion has smaller buttons that means one cannot be a backup for the other. It's already bad enough that to make recordings for my arrangements I have to use all other accordions, with 3 different button sizes between them...

 

[JerryPH]

hey Jerr

you have a good connection with them...

Let's make a big distinction... I don't have a connection to them, I have their ear, big difference.
Also, let's make it clear that unless anyone gives me the superpower to speak for them or share THEIR words, I am sharing my opinion.

the longer this goes on, the more need for a thorough understanding
of the solution by users/buyers at the end point (my assumption)

I agree that it is good to know how to fix your instrument at least to some extent, but we are not talking an acoustic box. This is a very technical, electrical, digital product. How many people who ever are going to buy one are qualified to take it apart, and if they do AND its under warranty, but because they feel they can fix something in the field, but then break it further, what are the expectations of who pays for that?

IMHO, if something is under warranty, the ONLY person that should be poking around in there should be the manufacturer of that unit, be it a FISA, plane, train, automobile or calvarium drill... lol

how would you take one apart
in an emergency if you had to ?

Again, my response is "you don't, your qualified tech can and should".

have any pictures of the BACK of
the box even been published ? anyone out there have a clue how to
actually take one apart (without breaking something) ?

I am 100% sure that someone "not FISA qualified" already has, and to a surprising extent, however, do they want to share that info? That would be up to them.

and because of this, the bug to put in their ear is that they
might consider publishing a full spread of pics and schematics
that show everyone EVERYONE how these actually physically go together
(and by extension, how easily they can be worked on at need)

Again, goes to qualification and ability... just because I can read schematics, does not make me capable of similar things, FISA or otherwise.

think about it.. we ALL can make some spot repairs in a pinch
on accordions.. we ALL take it as a given that having some
R&R smarts about our accordions is a given.. even a necessity..

Yeah... I am looking at it from both sides, KORG's and yours. Both are valid, ultimately, it goes back to qualification/ability. This is up to KORG and what they decide to release. The papers from the Roland boxes were not publically released, someone there leaked them. I am sure that put a frown on someone at Roland at that time too.

so to get confidence back, and i mean day to day don't have to
have it in the back of your mind anymore, the physical instrument
may need to be fully de-mystified to the consumer..

Disagree. First off, these are digital/electronics, there is no day to day maintenance needed. Things work... until they don't. The terms "field serviceable" and "digital accordions" should not be used in the same sentance... lol

That said, I don't need to know how to design a an engine head spring to have confidence that my Corvette will start tomorrow morning. Similar example, when the 1999-2002 Corvettes came out, they came out from the factory with heads with weak springs and if some owners were over enthusiastic, those springs broke, usually with the added bonus of taking the entire engine with it.

Chevrolet dealerships received the cars, replaced the engines AND made sure better quality springs were included. The customers were not given the 900 page report of how the springs were designed, how to take everything apart in a specific oder, what to replace and how to do it, they did it and the customer got to drive home their fixed 'Vette once completed.

Now, how KORG wants to play it, this may be completely different and they may turn around tomorrow and do exactly as you ask of themselves, but I have my doubts that this will ever happen. The last thing any manufacturer wants is to give instructions how to take their products apart just because they need some sense of confidence in the product, no matter what, confidence is something that is earned over time and continued use of a product.

I will never be the person that tells someone how to run their business internally.

Now, there is that question that I read above of 100% reliability... I'll get to that in a separate post later. Right now I have an accordion calling out my name wanting some attention.

 

[dak]

The last thing any manufacturer wants is to give instructions how to take their products apart just because they need some sense of confidence in the product, no matter what, confidence is something that is earned over time and continued use of a product.

One thing that has endeared me to ThinkPads (both IBM and later Lenovo) is that they publish the disassembly manuals along with the hardware releases. While the utility went down over the years (parts that are soldered in are not really user-replaceable, so things like a CPU upgrade have become out of reach), this is still a major feather in their cap in my book.

Peavey is pretty lenient with their schematics as well, making me quite endeared to their amps (and leads to my amps being non-standard regarding available input options and noise).

 

[Dingo40]

How many people who ever are going to buy one are qualified to take it apart,

This reminds of an incident wherein the onboard engine computer of a very expensive 4WD vehicle (still under warranty) malfunctioned in an outback town preventing the engine starting .
The whole vehicle had to be transported ( some 400 km by truck) back to the dealership, the one place capable of fixing it .
Now, you'd think the whole point of a 4WD is reliability and ease of on-road fixability (cf with the early Ranger Rovers and Fords).
Imagine if it had broken down in the middle of the Simpson Desert, out of cell phone range!
Not all change is for the better!