FR-8x: Sets, WA Set, User Programs ...

[n9yty]

First, I would love to see a PDF listing the sounds in a set like what Richard Noel offers. Id say the same for Dale Mathis, to compare, but he doesnt sell his sets separately so it doesnt really apply if you already have an instrument. But I can understand why Richard would restrict that listing to only people who have bought his sets, because in many ways that is his secret sauce, if you had the list I suuppose you could ask why you would buy his set at all and not just try to recreate it? But I would imagine he has done a lot of tweaking for voice parameters beyond just putting them into the spots, so even if you duplicated the sound layout you probably wont have duplicated his sound set.

As for generating a listing...

I would love this too. I spent a little time writing some scripts to break apart the ALL User Program and SET dumps into banks for user programs and separate files for both user programs and sets, but I havent dug into the actual contents of the set definition.

There is a program here, although I am not familiar with the language used. It might be helpful to dig into this though.

https://github.com/hyphz/fr8x-editor

The WIKI page there has some information about the file format/contents. I might actually look at trying to find a way to dump that out, but it doesnt look like instrument *names* are stored in there, but just numbers. For the built-in sounds that would be easy enough to build a table for, but I dont know how the expansion banks work, and if they always end up in the same places. Also, that is for the FR-8x, I have a FR-4x, but at least for the script I wrote to break the files apart the file sizes/components seem to be the same size, just that the FR-8x has more sounds I think and also has the orchestra2 part.

 

[JerryPH]

Salut Mario.  

You wont find a list of everything because there are different possible configurations.  Basically there are 9 expansion sound collections and only 4 possible slots to fill, so the combinations are numerous.

Think of it as a small task that all V-accordionists should do... to document their setup.
HERE is where I have mine, on my blog/website.

 

[n9yty]

Think of it as a small task that all V-accordionists should do... to document their setup.  
HERE is where I have mine, on my blog/website.

Thanks for sharing, Jerry, what a wonderful site.

 

[JerryPH]

Thanks for sharing, Jerry, what a wonderful site.

Well thanks! 

 

[Simon Max]

First, I would love to see a PDF listing the sounds in a set like what Richard Noel offers. Id say the same for Dale Mathis, to compare, but he doesnt sell his sets separately so it doesnt really apply if you already have an instrument. But I can understand why Richard would restrict that listing to only people who have bought his sets, because in many ways that is his secret sauce, if you had the list I suuppose you could ask why you would buy his set at all and not just try to recreate it? But I would imagine he has done a lot of tweaking for voice parameters beyond just putting them into the spots, so even if you duplicated the sound layout you probably wont have duplicated his sound set.

As for generating a listing...

I would love this too. I spent a little time writing some scripts to break apart the ALL User Program and SET dumps into banks for user programs and separate files for both user programs and sets, but I havent dug into the actual contents of the set definition.

There is a program here, although I am not familiar with the language used. It might be helpful to dig into this though.

https://github.com/hyphz/fr8x-editor

The WIKI page there has some information about the file format/contents. I might actually look at trying to find a way to dump that out, but it doesnt look like instrument *names* are stored in there, but just numbers. For the built-in sounds that would be easy enough to build a table for, but I dont know how the expansion banks work, and if they always end up in the same places. Also, that is for the FR-8x, I have a FR-4x, but at least for the script I wrote to break the files apart the file sizes/components seem to be the same size, just that the FR-8x has more sounds I think and also has the orchestra2 part.

Did you share these scripts here?
Thanks in advance.

 

[JerryPH]

When you purchase the Noel sets, he includes PDF files of descriptions but it if those descriptions were used, as said, you would not be able to recreate them anyway... there are hundreds of settings and thousands of possible combinations available even if you worked with ONE sound.

For example, his accord1 set looks like this:


So, in a way I don't think anyone ever will, because first it is a ton of work and a lot of time to go through not just the sounds in a Noel set, but the settings applied to them, and though not many want to say it (but many think it), it opens the door to copying someone else's hard work.

It's easy to say that "in Noel set 003 register 5 is "accordion", but what settings did he change from factory? I took a quick look and at last look it was like 11 settings were changed from factory for that one sound, then many more things change when you hit the master palm switch because that adds organ settings and again many more changes to those sounds.

Maybe if someone started back in 2018 (when this thread started), they'd be close to complete in documenting his custom sets completely by now (lol), and that PDF document would be an easy hundreds if not thousands of pages of settings and explanations of what Noel did in his custom sets.

Talking about sets... others are now making custom sets too... but from what I hear, nowhere near the bargain that the Noel sets are. Michael Bridge is offering something like 1-2 sets for $150US and someone who is kind of (IMHO) abusing the legendary name of Gary Dahl is offering something like 6 sets for $100US... so getting 32 really usable sets for $199 is the real bargain here, though in the spirit of transparency, I've only heard Michael's samples on YouTube and know nothing more than what is stated on the website for the Gary Dahl sets, which do seem to be not much more than straight accordion sounds.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

An easy way that I use to distinguish things is this:

A set is a collection of (up to) 14 registrations on the right hand, 7 on the left.
A registration is one of the 14 sections that make up a set.
The WA or WORKING AREA is a single registration that is put in to this little area to be worked on and modified. Unlike the 4X that appears to load all user sets The FR-8x has an extra Set memory called Working Area (W.A). This area is used to load a singular Set linked to a User Program.

UPG or User Programs are basically sets with a different name and are accessible using the UPG button. These are custom sets that you have put together based on predefined user needs or requirements with virtual instruments pulled in based completely on your needs from scratch. When you work on a set, you are using the W.A.

These "user needs" can be defined as:
- registrations based on multiple registration changes within ONE song
- registrations based on style (German, Jazz, French, etc...)
-registrations based on event (wedding,
- registrations based on instrumental groupings (Horn section, strings, sound effects, different drum kits, etc...).

Then we have User Program lists, which is just a file either on a USB stick or inside the 8X that is a collection of user programs. Best use I can think of is to have a series of custom registrations from User Programs arranged in a predefined order. While playing in public, for example, it is used as a way to move from prearranged song to song in a musical set. This makes it easy to change registrations for your next planned song a mere button press away.

The 4x also has a WA.

 

[JerryPH]

The 4x also has a WA.

Yup, but the 8X loads one at a time, where as, if I remember correctly (in a discussion with a Roland tech last year), the 4X dumps them all in and internally defines the one being worked on, a different process than the 8X.

 

[Tom]

When you purchase the Noel sets, he includes PDF files of descriptions but it if those descriptions were used, as said, you would not be able to recreate them anyway... there are hundreds of settings and thousands of possible combinations available even if you worked with ONE sound.

For example, his accord1 set looks like this:


So, in a way I don't think anyone ever will, because first it is a ton of work and a lot of time to go through not just the sounds in a Noel set, but the settings applied to them, and though not many want to say it (but many think it), it opens the door to copying someone else's hard work.

It's easy to say that "in Noel set 003 register 5 is "accordion", but what settings did he change from factory? I took a quick look and at last look it was like 11 settings were changed from factory for that one sound, then many more things change when you hit the master palm switch because that adds organ settings and again many more changes to those sounds.

Maybe if someone started back in 2018 (when this thread started), they'd be close to complete in documenting his custom sets completely by now (lol), and that PDF document would be an easy hundreds if not thousands of pages of settings and explanations of what Noel did in his custom sets.

Talking about sets... others are now making custom sets too... but from what I hear, nowhere near the bargain that the Noel sets are. Michael Bridge is offering something like 1-2 sets for $150US and someone who is kind of (IMHO) abusing the legendary name of Gary Dahl is offering something like 6 sets for $100US... so getting 32 really usable sets for $199 is the real bargain here, though in the spirit of transparency, I've only heard Michael's samples on YouTube and know nothing more than what is stated on the website for the Gary Dahl sets, which do seem to be not much more than straight accordion sounds.

Been watching "Dale Mathis" videos. He seems to bundle his sets with a new Roland purchase. They sound pretty good to my untrained ear for these things.

 

[kep]

Been watching "Dale Mathis" videos. He seems to bundle his sets with a new Roland purchase. They sound pretty good to my untrained ear for these things.

Apparently, the price for Dale's sets in fact equals the price of FR-8X if you buy from his store; there are no unbundled sets.

 

[JerryPH]

The one thing that no one that I know has ever discussed is... what *are* they charging for their 8X's? If they charge the same as everyone else and toss in the sets, that adds value and is a good incentive, but if they charge you $100-$500 or more just because it has those sets, then basically, it is a rip off, unless they offer you the choice of getting a fair discounted price and letting you choose whether you want them installed or not.

 

[Ventura]

in retail, now that the shopping on the Internet is de-facto
you either compete on Price, or on Value Added

Rose at Roxy's competed with a combination of both
Sam markets with an organ born mentality of offering enticing extras like
free lessons, free meetings, free inclusion in the orchestra, and double Warranty period
Alex competes with access to Italy and the cachet of the insider and events
Dale is obviously using his programming as "Value added"