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FR-8x: Sets, WA Set, User Programs ...

Ernesto

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It is true, they are only four months studying and experimenting with the FR-8x. I have 'discovered' some 'secrets' (the User Manual does not help much), but others remain a mystery to me.
What is the true relationship between the Sets, the WA Set and the User Programs? Theoretically, a user program is linked to a set. But this only happens at the moment of creating a combination of sounds to store it in a UPG. Then, the modifications made in the latter do not change the parameters in the set that originated it, nor changes in the set are reflected in the 'closed' UPG. Moreover: if that original set disappears, the UPG remains intact.
My goal is to create one, two or three sets that standardize my favorite sounds and combinations so I can easily locate them and use them in the orchestration of new songs, as if they were toolboxes that contain basic elements for the construction of new combinations.
Another question, I still do not understand what the WA Set function is.
I thank those who have some experience or knowledge in these topics and want to share them.
 

Keymn

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Hope this helps...this is on page 6 of FR4x reference manual. Probably similar in 8x.
 

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Ernesto

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This graphic is much clearer and more explicit than that of the FR-8x.
 

JerryPH

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An easy way that I use to distinguish things is this:

A set is a collection of (up to) 14 registrations on the right hand, 7 on the left.
A registration is one of the 14 sections that make up a set.
The WA or WORKING AREA is a single registration that is put in to this little area to be worked on and modified. Unlike the 4X that appears to load all user sets The FR-8x has an extra Set memory called Working Area (W.A). This area is used to load a singular Set linked to a User Program.

UPG or User Programs are basically sets with a different name and are accessible using the UPG button. These are custom sets that you have put together based on predefined user needs or requirements with virtual instruments pulled in based completely on your needs from scratch. When you work on a set, you are using the W.A.

These "user needs" can be defined as:
- registrations based on multiple registration changes within ONE song
- registrations based on style (German, Jazz, French, etc...)
-registrations based on event (wedding,
- registrations based on instrumental groupings (Horn section, strings, sound effects, different drum kits, etc...).

Then we have User Program lists, which is just a file either on a USB stick or inside the 8X that is a collection of user programs. Best use I can think of is to have a series of custom registrations from User Programs arranged in a predefined order. While playing in public, for example, it is used as a way to move from prearranged song to song in a musical set. This makes it easy to change registrations for your next planned song a mere button press away.
 

kep

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Just a small addition: every set has a collection of orchestral voices (28 Orchestra1 & 28 Orchestra2 for the FR-8X). They are specific to a set, not a register.
I need to double-check, but from top of my head the organ voices are independent from sets and stay global (there are also 28 for the FR-8X).
 

Ernesto

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that, to some extent, paraphrase what the FR-8x User Manual says.
There is a taxonomic problem, which is repeated in the Manuals and in the opinions of many colleagues. The use of the same term to designate different things, or of different terms (set, register, parameter, etc.) for the same thing, does not help to clarify the structure of the 'machine'.
For example: if two objects are linked, the modifications in one of them also affect the other. This does not happen between the so-called WA Set and the Set to which it refers, nor between a User Program and the Set on which it is based.
I am trying to put in order, according to my preferences, a single basic set (or, at the most, two) on which to base all my User Programs, one for each song of my repertoires.
Best regards
 

Ernesto

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Why do you say that the collection of orchestral sounds is specific to a set?
According to my observations, all the factory sets have, and in the same location, the same collection of orchestral sounds.
Regards
 

kep

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Ernesto,

The collection you observed is default, made by Roland. You can easily check it by changing some of the instruments in any of the sets and save it: the saved instruments will be only in that set, the order of instruments won't change in the rest of the sets.
So, we can save a collection of the orchestral instruments with a set, separately for Orchestra1 and Orchestra2.
As to the Organ, its presets are global and independent from sets.

Regards,
Kep
 

Ernesto

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Good morning, Kep!
Right, that's right. This is what I am doing, ordering the orchestral sounds that I need in my own set. Although it is quite laborious to put other instruments in the place of the originals, because many of the proper parameters -unlike the organ sounds- seem not to be incorporated (those of the default sound remain) and it is necessary to copy them manually or find others.
II'm also having problems with the original orchestral sounds: in some, the MFX default, for example, the 20.3 Tap Delay of the Ac.Gitar, in the Orchestral Chords section, seems not to work (luckily, I do not need it, I prefer the classic guitar). In the case of Violin and Violoncello, the extreme levels of Volume are very difficult to balance.
Well, we must continue building the orchestra!
 

kep

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Ernesto,

I cant recommend enough the sets provided by Richard Noel. He really has done all the heavy-lifting choosing the voicing and parameters both on accordion and orchestral sounds, and did it with taste and attention to every small detail.
http://www.noelaccordion.com/roland.html
 

DonN5LZ

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I agree with Kep on the Richard Noel sets. I’m a brand new FR4X user (just one week) but while doing my pre-purchase research I made the decision to buy and load the Noel sets on the very first day …. and I did. My experience with keyboard synths over the past 20+ years has taught me that I am NOT and will never be a programmer … I’m just a player.... and I do not wish to spend my time programming. The Noel FR4X package includes four sets and 98 user programs (7 banks of 14 UPGs). When I imported his user programs all of the factory UPGs were of course overwritten, but since I hadn't used them yet I really have no idea what I'm missing :)

The result of my Noel sets purchase is that I was able to begin enjoying my new instrument right out of the box. I personally find that switching between user programs is the best way to quickly select any desired setup. On the other hand, changing to a new set essentially switches to a new "accordion" with its own unique bass and treble register assignments. I am not really sure how one can remember the entirety of any single set …. not to mention 100 different sets! Thus far I have replaced one of Noel’s UPG banks with my own bank of favorites (assembled from the 98 UPGs provided by Noel). I’m having a ball.

I'm sure that the Noel sets for 8X and 4X are almost the same. And, Ernesto, another plus is that they can be purchased online and you will likely have them installed within hours.
 

Keymn

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DonN5LZ post_id=62940 time=1537293007 user_id=3110 said:
I agree with Kep on the Richard Noel sets. I’m a brand new FR4X user (just one week) but while doing my pre-purchase research I made the decision to buy and load the Noel sets on the very first day …. and I did. My experience with keyboard synths over the past 20+ years has taught me that I am NOT and will never be a programmer … I’m just a player.... and I do not wish to spend my time programming. The Noel FR4X package includes four sets and 98 user programs (7 banks of 14 UPGs). When I imported his user programs all of the factory UPGs were of course overwritten, but since I hadnt used them yet I really have no idea what Im missing :)

The result of my Noel sets purchase is that I was able to begin enjoying my new instrument right out of the box. I personally find that switching between user programs is the best way to quickly select any desired setup. On the other hand, changing to a new set essentially switches to a new accordion with its own unique bass and treble register assignments. I am not really sure how one can remember the entirety of any single set …. not to mention 100 different sets! Thus far I have replaced one of Noel’s UPG banks with my own bank of favorites (assembled from the 98 UPGs provided by Noel). I’m having a ball.

Im sure that the Noel sets for 8X and 4X are almost the same. And, Ernesto, another plus is that they can be purchased online and you will likely have them installed within hours.

I find making my own sets one at a time is easier for me to remember. I disagree that as users you are not capable of programming their own. I first created 7 registers of my favorite sounds. Added 7 more later which I use on all my gigs.
Gives me more time to concentrate on the audience then be buried in what settings. If you play French, Italian, etc. style gigs, then of course you might have another bank for that particular agenda. Is the audience going to know the difference between French or German musette? Only my opinion.

Enjoy your new instrument!
 

DonN5LZ

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I’m sure you are right Larry. How could I possibly learn this stuff in 7 days and know enough about it to be offering advice? Not possible of course.

Noel’s package does provide a very helpful printable pdf file that displays: (1) a “box” for each bank that lists key components (accordion, orchestra and organ) of each of the bank’s 14 UPGs listed according to register switch assignments; it shows the “on” layers in bold, but lists the other available layers as well so you’ll know what you will be getting when any are switched in or out, and (2) a single page display for each Set which lists the tone assignments for each register within that set. Those diagrams alone have increased my understanding of the overall scheme (much much more than the manuals have been able to do … at least for me!)

I wonder if that kind of information can be exported to the flash drive? I don’t recall seeing anything about that in the manual but could have missed it. As I see it, anyone wishing that kind of information from an 8X or 4X (specific components of currently installed sets, banks, and user programs) would have to painstakingly work through the menu and copy each bit of data one item at a time.
 

JerryPH

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DonN5LZ post_id=62947 time=1537303491 user_id=3110 said:
I wonder if that kind of information can be exported to the flash drive? I don’t recall seeing anything about that in the manual but could have missed it. As I see it, anyone wishing that kind of information from an 8X or 4X (specific components of currently installed sets, banks, and user programs) would have to painstakingly work through the menu and copy each bit of data one item at a time.
The Noel sets come as files... that you put on a flash drive and install as sets and UPGs, so of course if can be copied to a flash drive. :)

To recreate from scratch all the work that comes on those files... hundreds of hours easily, because it took someone with experience hundreds of hours to initially make them. Can they be worked through and copied one at a time.. Yes. Can they all be installed in about 20 minutes and you are left to enjoy and experiment... also a yes.

What I did was quite simple... I placed a value on my time. Was the hundreds of hours saved worth the cost of the Noel sets? Well, even if it was a hundred hours to make, that is about $2 per hour, but it is more like 200-300 hours of work to make from scratch. More if the accordion is new to you.

The bottom line is... what is your time worth? Mine is certainly worth more than $1 per hour that it would have taken me to TRY to make something like the Noel sets.

Certainly now with the editor one can save a lot of time, but in all honestly, even if you were REALLY good, youd not save 50% in time with it, so at the most expensive, these sets cost an honest $4/hour, and that is just so affordable, that for me at least, it was a no brainer. Also, I dont consider the sets the ending, but a GREAT starting point. Really its the best of both worlds.

I picked up the 8X in mid November, and by mid December, and with no public playing in over 35 years and only a good 3 months with any accordion in over 3 decades, I had the 8X singing for over 4 hours with dozens of amazing registrations performing in a public event at a local accordion club Christmas event. I am not patting myself on the back, but those registrations made me sound great! Not something I could have ever dreamed of doing without the Noel sets, so in all sincerity, I am very grateful for all of the work put in to the Noel sets and of course am a huge fan. :)
 

DonN5LZ

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I’m sorry Jerry but I did not make myself clear on my previous post (which seems to happen often). I think we all know that Noel's sets are delivered as files and that any set or program file, including his, can be imported or exported from a flash drive.

I was referring to the very useful information that Richard Noel provides on pdf …….. his user friendly listings of the contents and register assignments of his sets and program banks which can easily be printed out and used as “cheat sheets”. I was wondering if THAT type of information on CURRENTLY INSTALLED sets, banks, and programs could possibly be pulled from the accordion and exported. But I am almost certain that the answer to that question will be “NO”….. but still, it would be very nice to have that capability … the reality seems to be that, even while using the editor, it remains a very work intensive task to extract and record specific information from even a single set or program.
 

Keymn

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DonN5LZ post_id=63052 time=1537577567 user_id=3110 said:
I’m sorry Jerry but I did not make myself clear on my previous post (which seems to happen often). I think we all know that Noels sets are delivered as files and that any set or program file, including his, can be imported or exported from a flash drive.

I was referring to the very useful information that Richard Noel provides on pdf …….. his user friendly listings of the contents and register assignments of his sets and program banks which can easily be printed out and used as “cheat sheets”. I was wondering if THAT type of information on CURRENTLY INSTALLED sets, banks, and programs could possibly be pulled from the accordion and exported. But I am almost certain that the answer to that question will be “NO”….. but still, it would still be nice to have that capability … the reality seems to be that, even while using the editor, it remains a very work intensive task to extract and record specific information from even a single set or program.

I thought this info is in the manual...maybe I am wrong?
A cheat sheet for me is not an option. Do not want to be looking at something, spending time making the next register selection. My audience expects a show of non stop music. I watch audience faces more then my accordion. I am too old to memorize<EMOJI seq=1f913>?</EMOJI>. I get by with my 12/15 registers...I guess you can write on your sheet music what register setting?
If I were to do 100s of register selection(there I go Again), I would use my IPad, which is possible, but seems not popular advice on this forum...
Today’s show although I just played my Korg. Required no buttons to touch just played the keys. iPad did all the work...
Select song on iPad, and at the same time sets the keyboard to the proper style/tempo. But this is painstaking hours to setup my over 1100 songs. Over 3 years, few at a time...
For reference, here is my link again...
https://baumsoftware.freshdesk.com/...land-fr-4x-v-accordion-for-use-with-songbook-
 

DonN5LZ

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Larry, I think each of us is focusing on a different aspect of this topic and we have begun to move off in different directions …. you're talking gigs while I'm just trying to understand how this new V Accordion works. I'm talking about using the cheat sheets to help me figure the thing out ….. not to use as a crutch during a gig! I do get it about gigs and I fully understand that you need to keep things simple and easy so you can concentrate on your performance. I've never gigged with a digital accordion like you. I'm a piano guy and when I was more active I typically used only 2 or 3 different keyboard sounds during an entire gig … so I do get it. I'm 75 years old and have been retired for over 14 years now …. so rarely gig anymore …. And I suspect that 95+% of my playing with this new 4X will be with accordion sounds(after all, it is an accordion). I do have keyboards that I will play when I want to beat out a piano song (two 15 year old Kurzweil's, a rarely used old Alesis, and a relatively new 88 key Kawai ES-110 that weighs less than 30 pounds but does have great sounds and realistic weighted action).

But I really do want to explore this FR4X and delve into more of the things that it can do so I plan to spend a lot of time with it. Some of the sounds are truly amazing … for example I love the Sax … etc.

Getting back to my question about exporting useful set and bank information … I've never found anything about that in the manual … and I seriously doubt that the 4X has that type of capability.
 

Keymn

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DonN5LZ post_id=63056 time=1537589770 user_id=3110 said:
Larry, I think each of us is focusing on a different aspect of this topic and we have begun to move off in different directions …. youre talking gigs while Im just trying to understand how this new V Accordion works. Im talking about using the cheat sheets to help me figure the thing out ….. not to use as a crutch during a gig! I do get it about gigs and I fully understand that you need to keep things simple and easy so you can concentrate on your performance. Ive never gigged with a digital accordion like you. Im a piano guy and when I was more active I typically used only 2 or 3 different keyboard sounds during an entire gig … so I do get it. Im 75 years old and have been retired for over 14 years now …. so rarely gig anymore …. And I suspect that 95+% of my playing with this new 4X will be with accordion sounds(after all, it is an accordion). I do have keyboards that I will play when I want to beat out a piano song (two 15 year old Kurzweils, a rarely used old Alesis, and a relatively new 88 key Kawai ES-110 that weighs less than 30 pounds but does have great sounds and realistic weighted action).

But I really do want to explore this FR4X and delve into more of the things that it can do so I plan to spend a lot of time with it. Some of the sounds are truly amazing … for example I love the Sax … etc.

Getting back to my question about exporting useful set and bank information … Ive never found anything about that in the manual … and I seriously doubt that the 4X has that type of capability.
Apologies to getting off track...
How would Roland respond to your question? Have you tried to email support?
 

Glenn

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I guess some nice person will have to write a routine that calls “one by one” each user program and assemble a listing in a printable format. Any takers?
 

HiTechBiniou

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Glenn said:
I guess some nice person will have to write a routine that calls “one by one” each user program and assemble a listing in a printable format. Any takers?

I might do this some day.

Just got my FR8x 4 days ago...

I'm a graphic guy and I am frustrated NOT to find such a list of EVERYTHING.

The SET lists on page 47 of the User Manual is a joke.  It doesn't list all the registers and orchestra patches assigned to them.

Regards all.
 

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