Discrepencies Between Two FR-8X’s

[John M]

I have two Fr-8X’s (call them 8X-1 & 8X-2) with identical firmware (2.52.108) and expansion slots (Dallape, Alpine, AccOrchestra, and Balkan).
On 8X-1, I have a single 16’ reed (F-Jazz) ON. All other reeds are set to OFF.
On the 8X-1, I Exported the Set file (FR-8X_SET_ALL) and UPG file (UPG_ALL) to a USB flash drive
I then Imported the two files to 8X-2 from the USB flash drive.
On 8X-1, the single low Bassoon tone is noticeably mellower than on the 8X-2, which sounds more “harsh”
All the knobs (Volume, Reverb, Chorus, etc.) on both 8X’s are set to the exact same position.
The output is through the L/Mono jack to an external speaker.
Why is there a tone difference between the two 8X’s?
Is there some software setting (via the Menu) that does not get transferred with the Export/Import software in the Set and UPG files?

 

[Ventura]

only thing that comes to mind is if one Roland has the -10 db trim
for the output and the other is set normal

that shouldn't actually affect the tone.. but maybe check it

you could make a test by setting both bellows curves to a "fixed" setting
assuring each one is activting the note at the same level

you can try new reed leathers.. but that is expensive, or add
a strip of felt under the grill of the "brite" one

just kidding

good luck figuring this one out

 

[JerryPH]

I'm willing to bet that the manufacture dates are a bit different. Don't forget that the main factor a digital accordion sounds the way it does is the speakers. Speakers age, wear and similar speakers can wear differently as evidenced by my old Marantz speakers where one lasted for decades for me and looked like new and it's twin tore and had the foam edge turn to dust, yet they looked identical and were used at the same time. Manufacturers can subtly change the specs over time, mostly by reducing quality to maximize profit.

... or the EQ is simply different on the two 8X units.

I *believe* that what Ventura is talking about on the 8X is the menu section 14.4 Audio Boost: ON. By default the 8X keeps the setting to OFF and that lowers max volume down by about 10db to save batteries and help it not distort/clip so in essence cuts power in half. Turning it on enables the internal amp's full volume output capabilities giving you max volume. I keep it off when I am at home or when gigging with my external amp/speakers, but if in a situation where I am strolling and need to be heard, I turn it on, it does make an audible difference.

Cool that you have 2 8X's, BTW!

 

[Ventura]

hey Jerry

the original output signal on the FR7 was too hot for many wireless
TX to handle, so by the time of the 7x they added a software switch that
could pad the output by -10Bd so it would not overdrive anything

they continued this on the 3x, and i see a setting on the 4x too, so
i was guessing it is also on the 8x..

i think John is sending his output test through to an external amp

 

[JerryPH]

hey Jerry
i think John is sending his output test through to an external amp

KK... I know it is possible to overdrive an amp/mixer, but it would take a bit of effort. I've used the factory settings plus the Audio boost on with my amp and mixer with no ill effects, but there is one Noel set that uses a lot of heavy bass that comes just over the edge if you have the volume set to full and use that particular patch.

I'm not sure how everyone works, but usually when I am "amped" I tend to turn off the external speakers and it gets easy to hear (or see with a mixer), if we're hitting the wall.

 

[debra]

I'm willing to bet that the manufacture dates are a bit different. Don't forget that the main factor a digital accordion sounds the way it does is the speakers. Speakers age, wear and similar speakers can wear differently as evidenced by my old Marantz speakers where one lasted for decades for me and looked like new and it's twin tore and had the foam edge turn to dust, yet they looked identical and were used at the same time. Manufacturers can subtly change the specs over time, mostly by reducing quality to maximize profit.

...

Very true that seemingly identical products may differ due to changes in the internal design and manufacturing, while remaining identical on the outside. A good example is the Hohner Morino N series which, while looking and sounding identical, went through three different designs and implementation of the register mechanism, the worst of which was changing an all-metal construction to a mostly plastic (celluloid) one that breaks easily... Other examples are changes in reeds used in accordions of the same model series (like Bugari Artist Cassotto). On these accordions between roughly 2000 and 2015 I have seen at least three different reed manufacturers used. I guess they keep looking for the least expensive manufacturer of nearly identical types of reeds. Other such design changes are going from all leather valves to partly plastic valves, or from leather valves with metal booster springs to valves with plastic boosters, etc., etc. With electronic accordions it is of course similar. Manufacturers source components from different sources, which has led to faulty components in certain series,..

 

[Chris Laarman]

KK... I know it is possible to overdrive an amp/mixer, but it would take a bit of effort.

You're not into electric guitars, are you?

 

[Ventura]

it was quite an issue for the FR7 and FR5 at the time..

we tested a lot of wireless systems after a few people got burned
spending big bucks on something they got stuck with

the two best reliable "inputs would not be overdriven" systems were
made by Line 6 (digital) and Sennheiser (analog)

after we tested and reported, pretty much everyone used one of these
with no problems

 

[John M]

I changed the bellows curve from “Light” to “Fixed Low”.
Internal speakers set to OFF
Audio Boost set to OFF
The 8X-2 still has a harshness to the tone.
The 8X output goes to a Bose mixer and then to a Bose speaker
I can make the 8X-2 more mellow by cutting off the higher frequencies with my Bose mixer so it sounds like the 8X-1
Is there an internal EQ built into the 8X that may be different between the two 8X’s?
The firmware on the 8X-2 that I bought recently was 2.02.077, which I upgraded to 2.52.108
My 8X-1 is an 8X Dallape #255 out of 500.
Ventura, Is the -10db trim adjustment a Pot on a circuit board?
P.S.
I love the capabilities of the 8X so much, that I bought another used one (8X-2). I wanted to be sure, since the 8X is no longer in production, that I can at least always make one good 8X. As an aside, you may remember from the past problem with my Dallape. It does not want to communicate to my PC, so I cannot use the PC editor. I tried everything (including your suggestions on this forum) with no resolution of the problem. So, now I can have the PC editor working on my 8X-2. I can make program changes on it and then do a file transfer to my 8X-1.

 

[Ventura]

14.3 audio power settings in the owners manual, (page 106)

it shows you can trim the output by -12 Db via software switch

regarding the internal eq, there is a ton of eq power in the
(common to all high end Roland products) FX chipset
which is what controls the overall sound and output, but most of the
controls are only available to the Roland Programmers and when they
close their factory design for a specific product, most of those hooks
have been disabled in the user interface

they ended up hurrying to get the FR7 into production and left a lot
of things undone that should have been done
(like EQ'ing the output to match the frequencies put out by the internal speakers)

i mean you worked on a patch, thought you had nailed it, then
heard it through 1000 watts at a big Gig and realized if was gonna suck

i would think it may have been possible the Dallape team tweaking some things
as they finished their special edition, and that you are just the first one
to notice they missed matching eq differences for the normal FR8 with the dallape build..

there are a lot of errors to yet be discovered.. just this morning while i was working
on tweaking an FR4 set for a friend, i noticed there is an error in the Alpine waveform
M reedset low F was out of tune when they sampled/modeled it and it is
noticeable when you are tweaking the Meusette setting closely
(as it has an incorrect "beat" compared to the rest of the scale)

i like how you figured a work-around of the editor !

we do what needs to be done to make the Gig !

i ran 3 CG-V Cordovox's for decades - two working one for parts

 

[JerryPH]

You're not into electric guitars, are you?

Nope, but I know the difference between an overdrive on the guitar, a transmission and the 2 meanings in this tread (lol)... as in the overdrive effect and gain staged or too high an output to distortion. The last one was the one I was (perhaps mistakenly) using the reference to.

 

[John M]

Thanks for identifying 14.3. Both my 8X’s were set to -6 Db. I actually like the -12 Db best. It seems to me that there is a high frequency roll off as I change the setting from 0 -> -6Db, -> -12Db. It is more than just a volume change. If If I need more volume at -12Db, I do it with the mixer that just provides straight gain..
I am very fortunate that although the PC editor doesn’t communicate to my 8X-1, through the USB cable. the USB flash drive port does work and I can do the Export/Import process without a problem.

The information you fellas provide is great. This forum is a fantastic source of experienced folks that are willing to share their knowledge. I sure appreciate it.

 

[Glenn]

Have you created an mp3 of the offending “reed”on both machines and compared them?

 

[John M]

Have you created an mp3 of the offending “reed”on both machines and compared them?

I do not have the offending reed on my two 8X's (-- at least I don't think so). I believe you are referring to Ventura's post above where he says he has ". . . an error in the Alpine waveform M reedset low F was out of tune. . . "

 

[Airy]

Have you created an mp3 of the offending “reed”on both machines and compared them?

... I believe you are referring to Ventura's post ...

@John M
Sounds like a good idea to me anyway. Take any MP3 or WAV - preferably even an audio-test signal like a frequency sweep - and compare both's internal media player. If they sound the same it is NOT the analog part of the accordeons (amp, circuit board, wirering, etc).

If the audio file DOES sound the same I would favour the theory that the Dallape has different "hidden" settings compared to the standard FR8.

 

[JerryPH]

Dallapé are a bit different and there are some internal differences… I must have missed the part that one was a Dallapé. At least some evidence of the differences are that the Dallapé expansion cannot be removed, so one is limited to 3 open slots… no biggie if you are like me, use the Dallape sounds.

 

[kep]

Dallapé are a bit different and there are some internal differences… I must have missed the part that one was a Dallapé. At least some evidence of the differences are that the Dallapé expansion cannot be removed, so one is limited to 3 open slots… no biggie if you are like me, use the Dallape sounds.

This is the firmware difference, not hardware. You can try and update your FR-8X with the Dallape firmware and will act as FR-8XD model, and vice versa.

 

[JerryPH]

This is the firmware difference, not hardware. You can try and update your FR-8X with the Dallape firmware and will act as FR-8XD model, and vice versa.

Years ago in the old Roland yahoo forums someone tried that and fried their Dallape 8X, not sure if that was a user error or something that Roland didn't want people doing.