Bailie Ballerina - any idea on age?

[Dirtybluebells]

Hi all,

Hoping someone may be able to help me with when this Baile Ballerina 48 bass accordion may have been manufactured. Any help gratefully received!

Thanks,
Charlotte

 

[Ventura]

maybe 20 years

Baile was one of the earlier "modern"
chinese brands, then they changed to using a million
Italian sounding names

is it still playable ?

 

[Dirtybluebells]

Yes, easy to play, and is in tune. It very much is what it is, I just wondered a guess at the age from the style of it, as it seems from reading a bit that different materials were used at different periods of production by older Chinese brands. Many thanks for your reply!

 

[Ventura]

here in the States, the excellent Anders Bakke imported them for a few years
down in St. Augustine, as he felt they were the best of the Chinese bunch
at the time. He would go over each one, tweaking them and also he would
line the interior of the bellows to improve their compression and (hopefully) longevity

baile had full size models as well as the smaller ones at that time

and you can see from cosmetics the similarities to the Sylvana
(in looks mostly) that was studied and reverse engineered
at Pearl River

glad it is still useful and enjoyable for you

 

[Dirtybluebells]

glad it is still useful and enjoyable for you

Thanks Ventura. Those sound lovely - also nice that he apparently felt that was worth doing, despite the cheaper production.

What in yours or anyone else's opinion would be the better period for Baile? I read that when the state was funding the production of these there was better access to quality materials but when things changed to a free market costs were cut, alongside many workers making accordions for the black market in their spare time with parts they managed to get their hands on (I think to avoid starving), but access to quality materials was limited during this period, both in the factories or wherever else they were made. I do not have any idea if I have these facts correct, it's just something I read although it seems plausible enough. I also read that during the eighties quality was higher. Again, no idea if I'm close to the mark there or not.

I find the whole thing very interesting (aside from buying something made under sad conditions, but I feel like most of the high street is stocked with horror stories behind the cheap prices, so 2nd hand I can just about cope with. Plus I can't afford a Weltmeister), and would love to know which eras were better or worse. Any other input gratefully received, although I already very much appreciate your info so far!

 

[Dingo40]

Buying an accordion is a lot like buying a used car: for most of us, a shot in the dark!
(And, without an Ed China to put things right.)

 

[Ventura]

sounds like someone spun you a real yarn about Chinese manufacturing

the Govt. totally controls all music instrument production
there is no black market for any complex devices
that are not actually under their complete control

and the idea of jobless workers cobbling together accordions
from begged borrowed or stolen parts is completely impossible..
individual Chinese have no home workshops, no personal tool collections,
no access to any raw materials..

as far as periods of quality go, there is only one, they make as much
as they can as cheaply as they can and sell it for whatever they can talk
a wholesaler into paying, as there are very few quality levels (outside of
western company associations that have been given an area in Pearl River)
to run an operation according to their idea of quality control and manufacturing
(under tight oversight by the Chinese Govt.) such as Eminence Co. (Speakers)

at the same time, they are capable of building excellent accordions, but outside
of an international competition where a Chinese competitive cadre of students
has been allowed to attend and perform and compete, you will never see one

and will never get your hands on one

mainly, we cannot apply western ideas of manufacturing logic to
the Chinese.. they have incredible amounts of unskilled labor, and
they do not teach them skills, but rather manage ways and means
to run infinitely repeatable assembly at an acceptable level of quality
(meaning good enough to be sold)

Western style skills are studied, analyzed, and embedded in MACHINE
processes, and therefore are also infinitely repeatable at a high level..

robotics and computer control are the top of the foodchain in quality
manufacturing, and they are amazingly good at it

all Chinese instruments should only be considered on their individual
merits, as there is literally zero carryover from one to another
over any appreciable period of time

so just be glad you have a nice, usable Baile, but you will be amazed
someday if you get to play an (essentially student model)
Scandalli Silvana (upon which these small Chinese accordions were based)
and get to compare the difference

 

[Dirtybluebells]

sounds like someone spun you a real yarn about Chinese manufacturing

the Govt. totally controls all music instrument production
there is no black market for any complex devices
that are not actually under their complete control

and the idea of jobless workers cobbling together accordions
from begged borrowed or stolen parts is completely impossible..
individual Chinese have no home workshops, no personal tool collections,
no access to any raw materials..

as far as periods of quality go, there is only one, they make as much
as they can as cheaply as they can and sell it for whatever they can talk
a wholesaler into paying, as there are very few quality levels (outside of
western company associations that have been given an area in Pearl River)
to run an operation according to their idea of quality control and manufacturing
(under tight oversight by the Chinese Govt.) such as Eminence Co. (Speakers)

at the same time, they are capable of building excellent accordions, but outside
of an international competition where a Chinese competitive cadre of students
has been allowed to attend and perform and compete, you will never see one

and will never get your hands on one

mainly, we cannot apply western ideas of manufacturing logic to
the Chinese.. they have incredible amounts of unskilled labor, and
they do not teach them skills, but rather manage ways and means
to run infinitely repeatable assembly at an acceptable level of quality
(meaning good enough to be sold)

Western style skills are studied, analyzed, and embedded in MACHINE
processes, and therefore are also infinitely repeatable at a high level..

robotics and computer control are the top of the foodchain in quality
manufacturing, and they are amazingly good at it

all Chinese instruments should only be considered on their individual
merits, as there is literally zero carryover from one to another
over any appreciable period of time

so just be glad you have a nice, usable Baile, but you will be amazed
someday if you get to play an (essentially student model)
Scandalli Silvana (upon which these small Chinese accordions were based)
and get to compare the difference

Yes, as I say, no idea if the bits of info I've found are accurate, but there does seem to be a repeated indication that some periods for this brand were far better (or worse, I'd you like) than others.

Just to be clear, as I don't think I was initially, I'm not searching for an answer that says, "that accordion you have is brilliant!". I'm more just interested in the history of the brand in general, after reading a few things, often on here, sometimes other random things that come up. But I thought I'd ask as you never really know where the source of the information is from on t'interweb!

 

[Dirtybluebells]

Also, everything is relative - I wouldn't expect a Chinese made model to stand up to a well made European model, despite my lack of experience. I would be extremely surprised if that was ever the case. I think it can go without saying that the quality will be lower (or not, I guess that's why I'm asking but I would have assumed so), but within that make I was interested if there were variations in build quality.

I was interested to see that a couple of people knew other experienced players who have Baile's alongside far better accordions, I assume for certain uses (I think I've seen Parrot mentioned a few times, too) while being aware of their limitations.

 

[Dirtybluebells]

sounds like someone spun you a real yarn about Chinese manufacturing

 

[Dirtybluebells]

I won't hold it against them noone told it to me personally, it was just in a thread on here somewhere.

But as I say, you never know with the internet so I also like to ask myself. That's not my accordion, by the way - although I must say that unfortunately it is far better than what I have, a very old, almost unplayable "vintage" one with an Italian sounding name but not Italian, which my bro gifted me, but I am in the market for an accordion suitable for a beginner, which is most exciting! Would love to try the Scandalli Silvana you mention - especially if I could somehow try it at the same time as a Baile. Would be awesome to compare the difference.

 

[boxplayer4000]

An entry above suggests 20 years old. I remember these from a much earlier period (60s/70s) so probably 50 to 60 years old. I remember the Ballerina as well as a model called 'Clansman' which was aimed at the Scottish market. They were not viewed as 1st division accordions but they were sturdy and well made and I think the one you have, the ballerina, would testify to that.

 

[Dirtybluebells]

An entry above suggests 20 years old. I remember these from a much earlier period (60s/70s) so probably 50 to 60 years old. I remember the Ballerina as well as a model called 'Clansman' which was aimed at the Scottish market. They were not viewed as 1st division accordions but they were sturdy and well made and I think the one you have, the ballerina, would testify to that.

Thanks for the info! Again, it's not actually mine, but I am interested in this, thanks a lot for the added info, much appreciated

 

[JerryPH]

I'm more just interested in the history of the brand in general, after reading a few things, often on here, sometimes other random things that come up. But I thought I'd ask as you never really know where the source of the information is from on t'interweb!

In this case, any info you are going to get is going to be of 3 levels simply because it is A: communist and B: Chinese and most here... are not:
- over flourished and embellished if you speak to a "comrade" of the company.
- it will be touted as an excellent instrument when speaking to the seller
- it won't be liked by very many people with experience playing Italian/German accordions as the facts are, they are not made to very high standards.

History: the chances of getting any accurate history about a company from any communist country is unfortunately slim to none. I've had a few dealings with the Czech republic back when they were still under communist rule, and you would not believe how hard they desperately worked at letting you see ONLY what they want you to see. Reality was often far from what was recited.

 

[forró]

sounds like someone spun you a real yarn about Chinese manufacturing

the Govt. totally controls all music instrument production
there is no black market for any complex devices
that are not actually under their complete control

and the idea of jobless workers cobbling together accordions
from begged borrowed or stolen parts is completely impossible..
individual Chinese have no home workshops, no personal tool collections,
no access to any raw materials..

as far as periods of quality go, there is only one, they make as much
as they can as cheaply as they can and sell it for whatever they can talk
a wholesaler into paying, as there are very few quality levels (outside of
western company associations that have been given an area in Pearl River)
to run an operation according to their idea of quality control and manufacturing
(under tight oversight by the Chinese Govt.) such as Eminence Co. (Speakers)

at the same time, they are capable of building excellent accordions, but outside
of an international competition where a Chinese competitive cadre of students
has been allowed to attend and perform and compete, you will never see one

and will never get your hands on one

mainly, we cannot apply western ideas of manufacturing logic to
the Chinese.. they have incredible amounts of unskilled labor, and
they do not teach them skills, but rather manage ways and means
to run infinitely repeatable assembly at an acceptable level of quality
(meaning good enough to be sold)

Western style skills are studied, analyzed, and embedded in MACHINE
processes, and therefore are also infinitely repeatable at a high level..

robotics and computer control are the top of the foodchain in quality
manufacturing, and they are amazingly good at it

all Chinese instruments should only be considered on their individual
merits, as there is literally zero carryover from one to another
over any appreciable period of time

so just be glad you have a nice, usable Baile, but you will be amazed
someday if you get to play an (essentially student model)
Scandalli Silvana (upon which these small Chinese accordions were based)
and get to compare the difference

Whilst I am cautious about buying Chinese-origin tools / musical instruments because quality can vary significantly.
You have either certainly made up a lot of information here, or have inherited it from someone who didn't know better.

Where exactly did you get this information that individual Chinese do not have access to tools or home workshops? That is utter nonsense.

Some of what you say maybe true (to an extent), but you've attempted to generalise a large amount of people.
If anything, China has a large amount of skilled labour - whether they meet the quality standards of Italian accordion manufacturers is one thing, but that is not unskilled labour.

The accordion, despite its cyclical popularity over a hundred years, is still a very niche instrument (compared to others). So using an accordion as an example to generalise about Chinese capabilities in general is actually short-sighted.

They have a significant space programme, nuclear / military technology and other heavy industries that Italy and other European nations has not even started in, let alone compete. So I suspect your analysis on Chinese capability and skill is for the most part, false and misguided.

 

[Ventura]

there are an incredible amount of people in China

frankly, the Western nations barely comprehend what this means
and so they simply project western thought about life and
how society works onto their thinking about China..

they do things differently, they have a different way of looking
at family, their society, individuality, the way they do
things and why they do them that way.

simply making sure all those people are fed and housed
and have a decent life is a superhuman task and my hat is off to them

to achieve this goal, they do things differently than we do,
and that do not follow our understandings, but that work for them

manufacturing products for the West is and will remain under complete control

having home workshops is not something they even have room for

 

[forró]

there are an incredible amount of people in China

frankly, the Western nations barely comprehend what this means
and so they simply project western thought about life and
how society works onto their thinking about China..

they do things differently, they have a different way of looking
at family, their society, individuality, the way they do
things and why they do them that way.

simply making sure all those people are fed and housed
and have a decent life is a superhuman task and my hat is off to them

to achieve this goal, they do things differently than we do,
and that do not follow our understandings, but that work for them

manufacturing products for the West is and will remain under complete control

having home workshops is not something they even have room for

I can agree to your thoughts on this.

 

[Dingo40]

The Chinese are a very clever people: just look at the way they totally rattled the US establishment by means of a low tech device: a balloon!
The Russians needed the Sputnik to achieve a comparable effect!

 

[Ffingers]

"...having home workshops is not something they even have room for..."

A bold and utterly false generalisation.

Perhaps you need to spend a few months travelling that country and report back afterwards.

From my acquaintance with people who have done just that I have learned that a great deal of Chinese production of a huge array of items is 'home made' in private workshops in smaller cities and towns.
Nothing specifically mentioned in reference to musical instruments, though.

 

[boxplayer4000]

Chinese Culture.
The Chinese culture is confusing to Western eyes.
How are there so many millionaires in a ‘communist’ country?
Why do Western companies invest so heavily and move manufacture to this pool of incompetence, at great cost to their own population?
Let’s remember China had an ordered, structured civilisation at a time when a lot of the West still lived in caves (or up trees).
They take a much longer term view of culture than the West. When a senior Chinese diplomat was asked what he thought of the French Revolution he replied that he thought it was too early to make a judgement.