Arguments for monocolour buttons in CBAs

[debra]

What's this rule about not looking down at the keyboard?
Pietro Deiro was a champion among players, and he constantly looked down at the keyboard of his PA: see his old films on YouTube!

When I first started out on the piano accordion (that's...errrr... 50 years ago) my teacher had me place a piece of cardboard on the top of the accordion (held in place by pressure of the opened bellow strap) so that it was physically impossible to look down at the keyboard. This was very good to learn to concentrate on the sheet music (and later, when knowing a piece by heart, to look at the audience) and not on how to find which key.
When I see people look down a lot to find where which key is I ask them how long they had this accordion and remind them that since then the keys haven't moved up or down so (s)he should know where each key is.
On my CBAs (switched from PA 12 years ago) I do rely on the textured keys to find my way but that's because I play on different accordions with different sizes of buttons and button spacing and different range of notes.

 

[stickista]

What's this rule about not looking down at the keyboard?
Pietro Deiro was a champion among players, and he constantly looked down at the keyboard of his PA: see his old films on YouTube!

Not so much a rule as a ‘best practice’ that applies to most instruments. 
1) when reading, changing gaze back and forth from fingers to music is inefficient and error inducing.
2) (IMO) you don’t really know a piece until you have a complete mental map, to the point where you can visualize it in your head, away from the instrument. 
3) (again, IMO) it’s more important to know what any given interval feels like more than what it looks like. Again, the “look” part should be a mental image, not a physical one. 
4) looking at your hands communicates uncertainty to the audience and prevents eye contact (or at least the appearance of eye contact.)

Of course on piano, multi octave leaps usually require at least a glance, but on CBA, most leaps are within a normal finger spread, so can be felt.

 

[Deleted member 48]

Thank you all for some good arguments and viewpoints in this topic. 

Mental mapping is important when learning the CBA. 
And because of the regular buttonboard with equal intervals and distances, relatively easy to do. 

The Stradella bass buttons are monocolour, and that is not a problem. Even for starters. 

I personally don't need extra textures or markings on melody buttons or bass buttons.  Most accordions have the C bass button marked, and that's about it. 

In music there are two things that will guide and coordinate our melody and bass side fingering positions :
Our ears 

We are so used, in the beginning, to use our eyes, and depend a lot on visuals. 

I know this topic isn't an easy one, and even professional accordion teachers will have different opinions on this.

 

[losthobos]

Playfully thinking... Would it be throwing to large a spanner in the works to suggest a different colour for every note just for us who'd like to see our starting note easily...

 

[donn]

a different colour for every note

For me, possibly the worst thing about buttons might be their poor tactile legibility. The piano keyboard goes to unnecessary extreme in this, but it's a physical environment that's constantly feeding locational information through your hand and back to the brain.

That's utterly different from looking at your fingers and the keys, and trying to play the accordion that way, which I agree would be unfortunate as a rule - say in a performance situation. Though there are plenty of playing modes where it makes sense - for example, even though for practically purposes I don't play piano, I may refer to the piano keyboard when I'm trying to think about chords and intervals, because it's a structured scale that's easy for my feeble intellect to relate to, thanks to those black keys.

Anyway, if there were no black buttons, how would I detect from a picture whether the accordion is of the C or B type? Would it be acceptable to along with this reform, just eliminate the B griff accordions for the sake of less confusion?

 

[stickista]

a different colour for every note

For me, possibly the worst thing about buttons might be their poor tactile legibility.  The piano keyboard goes to unnecessary extreme in this, but it's a physical environment that's constantly feeding locational information through your hand and back to the brain.

That's utterly different from looking at your fingers and the keys, and trying to play the accordion that way, which I agree would be unfortunate as a rule - say in a performance situation.  Though there are plenty of playing modes where it makes sense - for example, even though for practically purposes I don't play piano, I may refer to the piano keyboard when I'm trying to think about chords and intervals, because it's a structured scale that's easy for my feeble intellect to relate to, thanks to those black keys.

Anyway, if there were no black buttons, how would I detect from a picture whether the accordion is of the C or B type?  Would it be acceptable to along with this reform, just eliminate the B griff accordions for the sake of less confusion?

Great point.   
I’ve had the good fortune to get together with Ludovic Beier whenever he comes to SF Jazz, and I recall him telling me that he never pays attention to tactile button markers. Indeed he gave me an exercise for randomly anticipating an interval or note and leaping to it without regard for fingering, precisely to develop a feel for the note locations without crawling around with the fingers.

 

[losthobos]

[/quote]
Great point.   
I’ve had the good fortune to get together with Ludovic Beier whenever he comes to SF Jazz, and I recall him telling me that he never pays attention to tactile button markers. Indeed he gave me an exercise for randomly anticipating an interval or note and leaping to it without regard for fingering, precisely to develop a feel for the note locations without crawling around with the fingers.
[/quote]
I like this approach.. Could you perhap share Ludovic's idea with us.. For me often what finger I'm gonna hit the next note with changes with relativance to the chord its going to be sitting in..
Also please.. Where is SF Jazz.. Thanks

 

[McSqueeze]

This is an interesting discussion so I thought I'd throw in my tuppence worth.

As a youth in Scotland I played PA till I discovered the CBA purely by chance at the age of 20 and right away I saw the advantages.
There were lots of PA teachers as almost everyone played PA but there were very few CBA players and no teachers, at least that I was aware of. So I was virtually on my own.

Back then in Scotland the only option was black and white buttons except for a few Hohners that had all white buttons with black dots on the edge of the buttons that could only be seen by the player but textured markings on buttons was unheard of.

Over the years CBA became more popular but even today the PA dominates in the UK. In time as recordings of players from other cultures became available I realised that other systems were played such as B system, Belgian, etc; and tutorials became available.
But with the advent of the internet much more knowledge became available leading to forums such as this one where players share information.

Well I've now played CBA professionally for 53 years in Australia and have tried numerous systems and techniques but have always resorted to playing the way I first taught myself.

I certainly like the look of monocolour buttons so when I had a new accordion built for me about 3 years ago I had it with all black buttons but also ordered a set of white buttons.
I've since played it with all white buttons and all black buttons but eventually resorted to a mixture of black and white. I also had textured markings but never got used to them.

I guess the point I'm making is that we're all different and that what suits one doesn't suit an other. Horses for courses as saying goes.

It's the same with C versus B systems. Often CBA players attempt to change systems but the majority seem to revert to the system they started on and have become used to.

So whatever you play have a Happy New Year and enjoy your playing.

 

[Jim2010]

Great point.   
I’ve had the good fortune to get together with Ludovic Beier whenever he comes to SF Jazz, and I recall him telling me that he never pays attention to tactile button markers. Indeed he gave me an exercise for randomly anticipating an interval or note and leaping to it without regard for fingering, precisely to develop a feel for the note locations without crawling around with the fingers.

This book is about musicianship.
http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/primacy
(I have no association with it other than currently studying it.)

One of its suggestions is to be able to hear/sing every interval (up and down), and suggests making a list of tunes that use the various intervals as a way of familiarizing yourself with them. (For example, Some-where in Over the Rainbow is an octave.) Another way to start getting them in your ear would be to sing/hear the all of the possible variations of do-re-me-fa etc. intervals of the diatonic scale we all know so well. Applying this to three row cba accordion, you can teach yourself how to play every interval (up and down) from anywhere on any of the three rows. Singing/hearing the interval in you head at the same time can help make playing them automatic over time.

 

[stickista]

This book is about musicianship.
http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/primacy
(I have no association with it other than currently studying it.)

One of its suggestions is to be able to hear/sing every interval (up and down), and suggests making a list of tunes that use the various intervals as a way of familiarizing yourself with them. (For example, Some-where in Over the Rainbow is an octave.) Another way to start getting them in your ear would be to sing/hear the all of the possible variations of do-re-me-fa etc. intervals of the diatonic scale we all know so well. Applying this to three row cba accordion, you can teach yourself how to play every interval (up and down) from anywhere on any of the three rows. Singing/hearing the interval in you head at the same time can help make playing them automatic over time.

I’ve always been blessed with ‘good ears’.
But a year ago I jumped into semester 2 of a 4 semester class at our local college on ear training and I’m about to start semester 4.
Never have I been so humbled. I had my small collection of common mnemonics (Rainbow for octave, Maria for tritone, etc, but had gaps I hadn’t thought of learning.
To begin with, the professor, a 37 year old PhD and concert pianist named Jim Stopher, is without question the most thorough teacher of any subject I’ve ever studied. Here’s a link to a few videos he did on basic interval theory.



His curriculum covers solfege (including chromatic), scales, modes, sight reading, intervals (all, not just common ones, up and down), conducting patterns, rhythm reading, complex time signatures, and dictation.
He composed 23 original mnemonics, sung in solfege, that cover every interval, extending to compound intervals.
I can now transcribe much more quickly, and I can essentially name every tone in complex chords with little effort.
It has been the single most productive study I have ever done.
Every school with a decent music program has something like this, and I HIGHLY recommend finding and taking one.

 

[fphlpsnrg]

The combination of monocolor and no C and F (or other) markings would be a disaster ...

Absolutely. My example is measure 33 from Ellingtons Sophisticated Lady. There certainly are those musicians who are able to make the jump from the Ab6b5 to the Gsus4 without peeking at the keyboard the first time, but I think many of us are like myself who do rely on that visual aid to find the G on the leap. Without the C & F indents for the left hand, building that chord would require psychic powers.



(arranged for C-System 5-row bassetti)

 

[stickista]

The combination of monocolor and no C and F (or other) markings would be a disaster ...

Absolutely. My example is measure 33 from Ellingtons Sophisticated Lady. There certainly are those musicians who are able to make the jump from the Ab6b5 to the Gsus4 without peeking at keyboard the first time, but I think many of us are like myself who do rely on that visual aid to find the G on the leap.

Great example, but in reality, I’m not sure how marked buttons actually help this.
Even at a slow 60 bps, that gives you, at best, a quarter of a second to locate a marker, judge how far you are away from the desired target, and finally (if necessary) move there. And that’s by cheating that quarter second off of the dotted eighth.
I suppose you can shave a few milliseconds off by sliding your fingers, but still...
I personally find that it’s quicker to learn how intervals feel in terms of finger stretch, and using top/bottom of keyboard and the fingers themselves as the markers. e.g. shift thumb to where the pinky is and recalibrate from there. But even that wouldn’t help in your gnarly example.  :s
Pianists can use their sustain pedal to cheat the time.
It’s why I bought of these...
http://www.bestguitareffects.com/gamechanger-audio-plus-pedal-review/

---

The combination of monocolor and no C and F (or other) markings would be a disaster ...

Absolutely. My example is measure 33 from Ellingtons Sophisticated Lady. There certainly are those musicians who are able to make the jump from the Ab6b5 to the Gsus4 without peeking at the keyboard the first time, but I think many of us are like myself who do rely on that visual aid to find the G on the leap. Without the C & F indents for the left hand, building that chord would require psychic powers.



(arranged for C-System 5-row bassetti)

Btw, are you saying you can actually pull that passage off? If so, I’m impressed. I’d have written it off as unplayable and rearranged. 

 

[Deleted member 48]

I agree with Stickista, marked C and F buttons won't help in fast or difficult music fragments. 
You simply don't have the time to visually check your fingering position on the buttonboard. 
You have to be able to react in a split second.

The mental map and muscle memory will do the trick. 

All my CBAs have monocolour buttonboards, and no markings or textures. 
So, even if I wanted to do a visual check before hitting the button, I can't check if my position is okay.  Because all the buttons are white. 

How many CBA and PA players look at the bass side stradella buttons before they hit the button?  Not many I think. 
Mental mapping and muscle memory on Stradella bass is easy, because of the regular intervals in fifths.

 

[debra]

I agree with Stickista, marked C and F buttons won't help in fast or difficult music fragments. 
You simply don't have the time to visually check your fingering position on the buttonboard. 
You have to be able to react in a split second.

The mental map and muscle memory will do the trick. 

All my CBAs have monocolour buttonboards, and no markings or textures. 
So, even if I wanted to do a visual check before hitting the button, I can't check if my position is okay.  Because all the buttons are white. 

How many CBA and PA players look at the bass side stradella buttons before they hit the button?  Not many I think. 
Mental mapping and muscle memory on Stradella bass is easy, because of the regular intervals in fifths.

Marked C and F buttons help with large jumps, especially in music you do not play routinely, and do not help with fast music fragments you have studied for many hours in order to be able to play them.
On the Stradella bass I always start by feeling for the marked C button and then start from there with relative moves. I use different accordions and the C is not in the same position on all of them. (The spacing is different too.)
Also, on the melody bass (convertor) I have C and F marked (row 1 and 3, on some accordions also row 4) and that too helps with large jumps.
At a social gathering I once tried to play some well-known songs (not well-studied, only well-known) on a CBA without textured keys, and quickly gave up. I rely on feeling my way around too much. That CBA had black and white keys, but I just cannot play by looking down at the keyboard. I have been trained not to and just rely on the textured keys...

 

[OuijaBoard]

The last I checked, gobs and gobs of young people were developing jaw-dropping virtuosity on CBA under accepted methods, and news flash, accepted methods do not include making them learn with strictly monocolors and no markers (textural or otherwise) of any kind. And gobs and gobs of adult CBA virtuosos are playing brilliantly with colored keys, textured markers, and, horrors, both! What deplorable state affairs is crying out for correction via a plea to subject people to unpleasant learning or playing conditions is a bit of a head-scratcher . . .

 

[Deleted member 48]

So everyone in the past, 19th century and early 20th century, playing monocolour and buttonboards withou marked C and F buttons, had an unpleasant accordion education?
In accordion history, the development of black and white CBA buttonboards came much later. And also the marked C and F buttons.

By the way, on a lot of (early or modern) melodeons, you will find monocolour buttons, and very few marked buttons. Some have 1, some have none at all. 

Why cant we experiment (again) with monocolour buttonboards on CBA?


Think like Pippi
[font=Merriweather, Georgia, serif]“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.”[/font]

[font=Merriweather, Georgia, serif]― [/font][font=Lato,]Astrid Lindgren, [/font][font=Merriweather, Georgia, serif][font=Lato,]Pippi Longstocking[/font][/font]

 

[donn]

How many CBA and PA players look at the bass side stradella buttons before they hit the button?

How many can manage without texture markings?

 

[Bella]

The only button on my bass side that is marked is the C - a small indent. I only ever use it as an initial start point, to locate the place where my piece will begin. So, 1 set up if starting in G, 3 sets up if starting in A. But it is almost no use to me at all when actually playing. I guess I am concentrating on so many other things, I fail to notice if there is an indent or not. I am learning my way around the bass buttons by direction and distance.

Having said that, I'm still on baby stuff, so could feel differently when things start to get more demanding.

 

[stickista]

The last I checked, gobs and gobs of young people were developing jaw-dropping virtuosity on CBA under accepted methods, and news flash, accepted methods do not include making them learn with strictly monocolors and no markers (textural or otherwise) of any kind.    And gobs and gobs of adult CBA virtuosos are playing brilliantly with colored keys, textured markers, and, horrors, both!    What deplorable state affairs is crying out for correction via a plea to subject people to unpleasant learning or playing conditions is a bit of a head-scratcher . . .

Well, the fact that gobs of young virtuosos are learning and playing on bi-colored buttons has more to do with the instrument they happen to have. I’d have to hear from educators as to how many actually teach by having students account for accidentals based on their color. I tend to think ‘none’, but that’s just conjecture.
I personally think mono vs bi colored is essentially a matter of aesthetics. 
Textured buttons is a completely separate issue.

 

[Deleted member 48]

How many CBA and PA players look at the bass side stradella buttons before they hit the button?

How many can manage without texture markings?

I think most advanced accordion players can manage without marked buttons.
I understand complete beginners want to have a tactile reference point (eg a C or F marked button) to exercise interval jumps and scales.
Because accordion tuition always starts with playing in the key of C ... (because historically in the 19th century music education was primarily a pianoforte based education, favorising the C scale layout as the basic layout).

But what when you have to start exploring tunes in other keys?
Suppose you have those C and F marked/textured buttons. Okay they can be useful for tactile reference in the keys of C and F.
But in other keys, the function of those C and F notes changes in the scales. From tonic to ... 
At this point, those markings/texture can confuse the brain. Suddenly those reference points change function, and they become more an obstacle than an aid to the learner/player...


I'm not a hardliner on marked buttons. My 5 CBAs all have the marked C bass button in the Stradella bass, and I haven't changed this button. These were the factory "settings" and I haven't replaced those buttons. My Hohner Amati 96 bass also has an E marked bass button. But I don't use those tactile markings when I play, I often play a piece in another key, I never have to watch or to feel the markings on buttons.
When I play in other keys (than C) that marked C bass button feels a bit "strange". But I don't pay attention to it, so I can manage to play in all keys.

I agree marked buttons can be help to get a comforting starting grip in the beginning period in the key of C.
But later on it's more an obstacle than a help.

If you have to start practising those longe distance jumps from eg the F Stradella bass button to the E, B or Fsharp bass buttons, you'll have to rely on the frequency of repeats and muscle memory.
Tactile markings won't help much, they just keep reminding you what a wonderful music key C is 

(I have nothing against the music key of C. In fact most tunes I play on my CBAs I play them in the key of C. But I also want to feel comfortable playing in duo, trio, ... with other music instruments in another key)