Old vs New

[debra]

This touches on a question I've had from posts here . . . Like yourself, my longtime techs regularly alter tremolo to taste for clients including touring pro's. They've never indicated that this is harmful or should not be done. ...

During the ACA repair courses we were warned that changing the tuning of an accordion from 440 to 442 or vice versa is a bad idea and not good for the reeds. That is (at A4) an 8 cent difference. This will not ruin the reeds (when done with care), but it will take quite a bit of life out of the reeds. Before a reed needs to be altered by 8 cents normally corresponds to at least 3 tuning jobs (without altering base tuning) and likely even more. So when you want to change an MMM from +/-20 to +/- 10 that takes 4 or 5 tuning jobs worth of life out of the reeds, and after such a difference it is likely that reeds will go out of tune rather soon, so you're looking at at least one more tuning (of the tremolo reeds) within a year or so.

 

[dak]

Wow, and I thought I knew how Leslies worked.

The operation is pretty straightforward. It's the physics that are super messy. The one thing that caught me really flatfooted is that the high treble range collapses once the horn rotates because the sound waves tear off the horn in an asymmetric manner. Some put the high trebles through piezos instead (the Echolette branded clones I think). I have a Leslie Turbojet but extensively modified: it's very quiet as long as the motors are off and has quite better treble behavior (speaker drivers and crossover are not original) than originally even when running.

Our (cheap) Thomas organ‘s “Leslie” had only the drum, but with a horizontal axle, lightweight plywood drum, which redirected the side-firing 12” speaker. My friend’s Gulbranson had an external case with a rotating drum with three 6x9 drivers. I never knew anyone with the B3 type with the rotating horns on top and drum below. I was only 17 and not rich.

I paid about €50 for my Solton Turbojet with rotating horn and drum, and the accordion ensemble financed the speaker replacements as long as we used this as an accordion bass amplifier. I've bought their part in the Turbojet back out in the mean time by bringing in a Peavey KB/A 50 which is a lot more portable and does the trick pretty well (we never used the rotation).

All the organs had electronic vibrato (frequency changes). The rest you describe are well beyond my very limited musical knowledge, and I am beyond impressed. Thank you.

I think the B3 has some comparatively crazy rotating electromechanical mechanism for doing vibrato. The popularity of Leslie speakers was quite an annoyance to Hammond (who wanted to replace church organs), and he changed the Hammond amplifier connectors a few times to thwart Leslie before he got to accept that people wanted something from the Hammond organs that he had not intended.

 

[dak]

Techs who would know have indicated to me that what's in the Bravos and the Welt folk-size PAs is Czech macchina reeds along the lines of what's in Delicia too. They are not Chinese-made reeds. They may be Chinese set and voiced, which can be inconsistent and at times problematic, but they are not Chinese reeds. Delicia and Weltmeister also have upgrade possibilities including Italian and TAM. But you have to be going through a dealer that has that ordering pipeline open with those makers.

The Czech would be crazy not to go with the Czech Titlbach reeds. I think they have out-engineered the Italians regarding machine-production of reeds and reed plates.

 

[OuijaBoard]

During the ACA repair courses we were warned that changing the tuning of an accordion from 440 to 442 or vice versa is a bad idea and not good for the reeds. That is (at A4) an 8 cent difference. This will not ruin the reeds (when done with care), but it will take quite a bit of life out of the reeds. Before a reed needs to be altered by 8 cents normally corresponds to at least 3 tuning jobs (without altering base tuning) and likely even more. So when you want to change an MMM from +/-20 to +/- 10 that takes 4 or 5 tuning jobs worth of life out of the reeds, and after such a difference it is likely that reeds will go out of tune rather soon, so you're looking at at least one more tuning (of the tremolo reeds) within a year or so.

Thank you for the input, and I'll figure it's best to pass on the instrument. I like a nice "violin" tremolo, 20 is pretty wide for my taste.

So, when you mention changing tremolo to the taste of the player, does this indicate you're referring to very small adjustments then? I've had 15 dialed back to 10. I've had 4 widened to 9 or 10. I think I've had 12-ish thinned to 7 or 8. Not in the same instrument, of course.

 

[dak]

Thank you for the input, and I'll figure it's best to pass on the instrument. I like a nice "violin" tremolo, 20 is pretty wide for my taste.

Nobody™ does +/-20. I think you will be hard put to find +16/-11 already. You have to keep in mind that you hear the beatings between upper and lower tremolo reed prominently, particularly so if the +0 reed is in cassotto.

And I think that the most cruel French musette tunings are more or less reserved to CBA instruments, namely old-style folk instruments (they will also have reed plates nailed/screwed on leather gaskets on hardwood reed blocks instead of using wax).

So, when you mention changing tremolo to the taste of the player, does this indicate you're referring to very small adjustments then? I've had 15 dialed back to 10. I've had 4 widened to 9 or 10. I think I've had 12-ish thinned to 7 or 8. Not in the same instrument, of course.

Sometimes there is just a little adjustment needed. If the tremolo is quite off your taste, it is more polite to the instrument to let it look for another player it might be happier with out of the box.

 

[Hilobox]

Thank you for the input, and I'll figure it's best to pass on the instrument. I like a nice "violin" tremolo, 20 is pretty wide for my taste.

So, when you mention changing tremolo to the taste of the player, does this indicate you're referring to very small adjustments then? I've had 15 dialed back to 10. I've had 4 widened to 9 or 10. I think I've had 12-ish thinned to 7 or 8. Not in the same instrument, of course.

Oh, dear, I am trem(ulo)bling that I, out of obvious ignorance, have opened up a Pandora's squeezebox on this topic. Kudos to your collective knowledge. Whew.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Oh, dear, I am trem(ulo)bling that I, out of obvious ignorance, have opened up a Pandora's squeezebox on this topic. Kudos to your collective knowledge. Whew.

Hope I haven't veered too far off for your topic, the comments here have just called up a mental note I've had to get to the bottom of this! So, I'm gathering that up to say, 5-cents-ish of adjustment isn't tragic? I acquired a small PA LMM during the pandemic, the MM of which is factory-set to the currently trendy 4-cent "swing," and it's driving me nuts. Inaudible in a group and lacking character for my taste. Five cents thicker would do fine. Or even three, probably.

 

[dak]

Hope I haven't veered too far off for your topic, the comments here have just called up a mental note I've had to get to the bottom of this! So, I'm gathering that up to say, 5-cents-ish of adjustment isn't tragic? I acquired a small PA LMM during the pandemic, the MM of which is factory-set to the currently trendy 4-cent "swing," and it's driving me nuts. Inaudible in a group and lacking character for my taste. Five cents thicker would do fine. Or even three, probably.

Ok, I am interested whether this "lacking character" applies to the following recording for you as well: I figured that if I crank my 3-reed tremolo register (which already is very decent on its own) half-shut, this pulls the tremolo reeds even closer to the main reed. Which is what I am doing here.



Using multiple reeds even in this manner makes the tone more pliable in my view.

 

[Hilobox]

Ok, I am interested whether this "lacking character" applies to the following recording for you as well: I figured that if I crank my 3-reed tremolo register (which already is very decent on its own) half-shut, this pulls the tremolo reeds even closer to the main reed. Which is what I am doing here.



Using multiple reeds even in this manner makes the tone more pliable in my view.

All I can say is that tears welled up in my eyes listening to your performance. This is so very beautiful. I've only heard this played live on a large pipe organ, but this recording has an element of intimacy that the aforementioned huge instrument cannot capture. JSB would be well pleased. Thank you for sharing this. Aloha.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Ok, I am interested whether this "lacking character" applies to the following recording for you as well: I figured that if I crank my 3-reed tremolo register (which already is very decent on its own) half-shut, this pulls the tremolo reeds even closer to the main reed. Which is what I am doing here.



Using multiple reeds even in this manner makes the tone more pliable in my view.

No, no, for me, Re the 4-cent setting I'm unhappy with, I'm talking about a 2-voice MM register switch used for dance-derived instrumental world folk music. Your spiffy sound is a different use-case and configuration.

 

[OuijaBoard]

]]]Nobody™ does +/-20. I think you will be hard put to find +16/-11 already. You have to keep in mind that you hear the beatings between upper and lower tremolo reed prominently, particularly so if the +0 reed is in cassotto.[[[

Actually, in Scottish folk/traditional dance music, it is not uncommon for MMM tremolo to be set at 20 each way. There are cases where it's been even wider. Some big dance accordions might have cassotto, but I'm not primarily talking about cassotto type boxes here. 20 cent MMM tuning is classic old-school Scottish musette. The fashion is trending drier these days, but the 20-cent era is far from over. I personally favor about half that, but I will no longer be considering the very wet accordion I had in mind with my question on this thread.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Below, for example, is an MMM set at -18/+18. It's dubbed "classic French tuning," and I assure you, old-fashioned "classic Scottish tuning" was often wider than this:

 

[PhiliGol]

Below, for example, is an MMM set at -18/+18. It's dubbed "classic French tuning," and I assure you, old-fashioned "classic Scottish tuning" was often wider than this:

Sorry for saying - but my ears are hurt by this - sounds like out of tune.

 

[Walker]

Very good video @dak. The contrast of violin/musette right hand and single voice left hand works well. The treble side really radiates and shines through, like beams of light breaking through the clouds. You play from the heart dak - good man!

 

[tcabot]

-25/+25 scares the midges away. Anything lower than that and the wee buggers will eat you alive.

 

[debra]

Below, for example, is an MMM set at -18/+18. It's dubbed "classic French tuning," and I assure you, old-fashioned "classic Scottish tuning" was often wider than this:

Amsterdam tuning is also wider than that. In my area Accordiola accordions were popular in some bands, MMM with something like -25/+25 (and no cassotto). Splitting headache guaranteed within half an hour of listening to a band with 20+ such accordions...

 

[dak]

Below, for example, is an MMM set at -18/+18. It's dubbed "classic French tuning," and I assure you, old-fashioned "classic Scottish tuning" was often wider than this:

Well, the mixture of registrations makes it a bit hard to tell which is which, but I guess that the start features the full frontal musette. I've had instruments sounding like they had been left in a septic tank with a load of rotting fish dumped over them every morning (in fact, going through various accordion boxes in my possession, I found one such piano accordion candidate I did not even remember having). They are somewhat reminiscent of this sound. I also had the impression from the video that the musette sound on this accordion is not quite consistent across the scales. While it seems like a bold supposition to detect something of that kind at this level of detuning, it may have something to do with how exactly the upper and lower tremolo match in their deviations. Tuning this to perfection will likely require very discriminate hearing in conjunction with masochistic leanings.

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

as there are no other resources here on the Big Island.

Have you not met Kalei Yamanoha? He's an accordionist and accordion technician living on Big Island. Great guy.

 

[Hilobox]

All of these responses regarding Musette tuning are like listening to master chefs and how an ingredient can enhance or detract. I just feel happy when I don’t burn dinner. You are all amazing.

 

[Hilobox]

Have you not met Kalei Yamanoha? He's an accordionist and accordion technician living on Big Island. Great guy.

Really? Wow! I will surely try to find him! Thank you!