Old vs New

[Mr Mark]

Thank you. The Italian C30 is beautifully made inside and out. It was obviously made with great care even though an entry model, kind of like our 1959 Lancia Appia. The reeds have great pureness of tone, but I feel pretty unemotional playing it. The 2013 Bravo is beautifully finished in black, but when I opened it up to remove a metal crumb from a reed, it also had sawdust inside and the edges of the reed blocks were never even sanded. Haven’t needed to open up the Marchesa, so I can’t comment on its interior build. i think the aluminum case may contribute to its (to me) powerful sound. Not a mellow sound, ha. I started playing in my late sixties, so nostalgia plays no role. Mahalo again for writing your thoughts.

It seemed to me that both the Bravo and Hohnica were like that, unsanded reed blocks (mmm slivers!). The pallets were also slightly out of alignment - not enough to cause leaks but enough to know they did ‘just enough’. The metal for the levers by appearance seemed cheap also - in that it appeared to be galvanized with rough edges (enough to cut). The whole thing seemed to be larger than necessary- almost like you were getting this big shiny accordion that didn’t need to be that big. Small details but enough to tell me not to expect anything more than what I saw on the inside.

I had a Concerto II 72 once that was arguably the nicest playing accordion I ever owned. Whomever set it up/rebuilt the insides really did a fantastic job and the thing was mighty loud to boot. Alas being a 72 bass it wasn’t enough for my needs and I graduated onto an incredibly beat up Verdi Ii 80 bass. I sold that Concerto to a real player who came over twice to test it out - so very discerning. It would be nice to still have and compare to my own workmanship now as well as the difference in tone on my older Verdi’s and Tango 2’s. I almost bet the 50s era were louder - yet also perhaps slightly more shrill in tone as well. Too bad they didn’t have any 80/34’s in that era (that I know of).

 

[Ikesaccordions]

I believe it's Czech reeds in the Bravo PAs and Nova CBAs. Whether they're set and voiced well might be another story. But I think those are Czech reeds similar to those in the smaller Weltmeister folk-size unisonorics.

Weltmeister has everything made in China now, I think. In any case the so-called "Czech" reeds used to be much better. I saw a new Weltmeister that had a laughable claim of "German craftmanship". Those days are long gone in relation to that maker.

 

[dak]

Weltmeister has everything made in China now, I think. In any case the so-called "Czech" reeds used to be much better. I saw a new Weltmeister that had a laughable claim of "German craftmanship". Those days are long gone in relation to that maker.

In relation to Weltmeister? Not really. They don't have the kind of personnel to do much innovation any more, but they are indeed producing in-house. That's part of the reason for their numerous insolvencies. I'll admit that I don't have up to date news after the last one regarding the ratio of their in-house work, but while I was keeping up, they had a much more solid claim to German workmanship than Hohner.

 

[Hilobox]

It seemed to me that both the Bravo and Hohnica were like that, unsanded reed blocks (mmm slivers!). The pallets were also slightly out of alignment - not enough to cause leaks but enough to know they did ‘just enough’. The metal for the levers by appearance seemed cheap also - in that it appeared to be galvanized with rough edges (enough to cut). The whole thing seemed to be larger than necessary- almost like you were getting this big shiny accordion that didn’t need to be that big. Small details but enough to tell me not to expect anything more than what I saw on the inside.

I had a Concerto II 72 once that was arguably the nicest playing accordion I ever owned. Whomever set it up/rebuilt the insides really did a fantastic job and the thing was mighty loud to boot. Alas being a 72 bass it wasn’t enough for my needs and I graduated onto an incredibly beat up Verdi Ii 80 bass. I sold that Concerto to a real player who came over twice to test it out - so very discerning. It would be nice to still have and compare to my own workmanship now as well as the difference in tone on my older Verdi’s and Tango 2’s. I almost bet the 50s era were louder - yet also perhaps slightly more shrill in tone as well. Too bad they didn’t have any 80/34’s in that era (that I know of).

 

[Ikesaccordions]

In relation to Weltmeister? Not really. They don't have the kind of personnel to do much innovation any more, but they are indeed producing in-house. That's part of the reason for their numerous insolvencies. I'll admit that I don't have up to date news after the last one regarding the ratio of their in-house work, but while I was keeping up, they had a much more solid claim to German workmanship than Hohner.

Now I'm "keeping up" so you can rest.

 

[dak]

Now I'm "keeping up" so you can rest.

So when was the last time you were in Klingenthal and talking with workers there? Here is a video that is 2 years old:


Now of course you may want to claim that this is just old material cut together, but try finding similar Hohner video material made in Trossingen that has been taken with a HD camera (namely, within the last 15 years or so).

Make no mistake: the plastic parts you see there make my skin crawl. But they are made in Germany.

 

[Ventura]

@debra

Physically or functionally speaking, is tremolo an additional vibration on the reed itself or a difference in tone between two reeds playing simultaneously?

and additionally, in this tuning explanation, referring to the musette as tremolo is
only in this context and for simplicity/clarity in discussion, so don't take the
context to define tremolo anywhere else.. like an old 1960's Surf amplifier..

Dak's first 10 words are the definition to remember out in the rest of the world of sound

 

[Hilobox]

To Mark, Perogie, Paul De Bra and others, you have not only answered my original question, but so much more. First on the subject of relative internal quality: I was totally new to accordions in 2013 when I bought the Bravo. Soon thereafter, I bought a little basic Prestini LM from my daughter's friend--the accordion which I played and got me hooked--and cleaned it and relined the case. It had a silent reed so I opened it up and freed a stuck valve. Having done the same for the Bravo, to remove some machining "swarf", I was taken aback with the beautiful internal finishes of what had to be a very modest little 1950s machine. The metal plate on which the pallets rest had an engined-turned surface. The reed blocks looked like fine furniture. I was new to accordions, but had restored several cars (Alfas, Fiats, VWs,Lancias, Jags) and bicycles and typewriters so could appreciate work well done. I gave the Prestini back to its original family when we move to Hawaii in 2016. Fast forward to 2021 when I bought the three additional ones I now have, from Liberty Bellows. So here I am, a lone, old accordion owner (old being me and some of the accordions) in the middle of a huge ocean, and I discovered all of you, which is a gift beyond price. I am determined to get the Bravo sounding right (certain notes have fast or slow vibrato), as there are no other resources here on the Big Island.

I understand tremulo. In my younger years, I played the organ. We had an electronic one with a Leslie speaker. I took it apart, and found it used a rotating horn, which produced tremulo using the Doppler effect and volume variation. I even went to the Leslie factory in Pasadena with my dad and later tried to make a Leslie for my physics class using a rotating drum of speakers. I loved the sound of theater organs, which by the way, often use rotating vertical "shutters" which alters volume and also redirecting sound to introduce some Doppler effect as well. Anyway, I am literally "all wet" and have a Chinese box with tremulo and three others which are dry.

And one last question: I love the sound of the tiny Starlet, but it is too limiting. Can someone recommend a box that has that beautiful musette sound, but more keys, that same look with the gold anodized grill, and will not use up all my retirement savings? Mahalo. And oh, yes, I owe you all so much that if you are in Hawaii and want to see a volcano, drop by. We have three guest bedrooms, one of which has accordions in it. Aloha

 

[Ventura]

Then the hard work starts:.......................... the notes have to sound right.

boy you aren't kidding ! even as a lightweight when i have feathered a musette pair of reeds,
i am more counting the beats then riffing up the scale and constantly comparing the sound
and thinking what would be best

an interesting aside is that, with the first solid state Cordovox, they had individual
top octave generators, which frequently needed re-tuning as the trim pots were copperwound
and would vibrate (15" woofer in the same cabinet)

now when you tune one of these, and check the intervals 4ths and 5ths,
the "beating" is incredible compared to reeds, so you kinda get a feel
for what is horrible as opposed to what works musically for a clean octave
whose notes will work together.. that kinda helped guide my amateur reed tuning
forever after

 

[tcabot]

I think there is a tendency to produce louder, more responsive, objectively better reeds...regardless of what happens to the timbre.

The old fully-hand-made reeds in my early '30s AA bando have got an incredibly sweet sound, but objectively they are probably at the same level as modern dural (if that). Not a problem on a bandoneon where you have lots of air and only two voices, but putting such reeds into a 5x5 accordion will probably be unplayable.

The German-built Hohner Morino with Artiste voices from late 50s/early 60s that I'm absolutely in love with right now has got softer reeds that produce an incredible timbre, but objectively, do not come close to Italian-made tipo a manos from the 60s, never mind a-manos from the 80s in terms of loudness, air usage and dynamics... But their quality is enough for me - now that I've tasted their sweetness, there's no way I'd swap that timbre for marginal gains in loudness, dynamics and responsiveness.

But timbre preferences are subjective (for every person who loves it, there will be another one who hates it), while responsiveness, loudness and gap width are objective. It's the gap width that sells accordions, but it's the timbre that makes them sing.

PS re-reading this post, I think I'm down with a bad case of SAD (squeezebox acquisition disease).

 

[Ventura]

Can someone recommend a box that has that beautiful musette sound, but more keys,

past days i have described how to convert a beater LMM accordion to MMM,
and you could easily convert an LM to MM with the same method..
if interested, old threads have more explanation..

basically you choose the target model, perhaps a 3/4 size 120 bass if you prefer smaller,
like the Prestini or similar.. so you pick up a couple identical from eBay over time or
someone with a stash of junkers in San Francisco on a visit, then rebuild the best one and re-do
the L reedblock sections to hold another M set borrowed from the donor junker

voila, a nice sized, lightweight MM or MMM stroller

 

[dak]

I understand tremulo. In my younger years, I played the organ. We had an electronic one with a Leslie speaker. I took it apart, and found it used a rotating horn, which produced tremulo using the Doppler effect and volume variation.

A Leslie speaker does not produce "tremolo" but a complex combination of tremolo, vibrato (frequency variation), and spatial response, with the Doppler being responsible for part of the frequency variation.

The rotating drum for the low frequency speaker comes closer to a "mere" tremolo as the drum runs slower than the horn. The ratio between vibrato/tremolo/Doppler effects for the horn also depends on whether the "deflector" baffles inside the horn have been left in place or removed (a frequent modification).

So, uhm, no, that's only partly tremolo but to a significant degree something else. Some organs have an "Unda Maris" register for combining into a tremolo sound that works like an accordion tremolo does. A violin does "tremolo" by doing the equivalent of a bellows shake with the bowing hand. It can do "vibrato" by a sort of shaking movement with the fingering hand. You can do similar movements with a fingering hand on an accordion, or a fanning motion with the bellows hand. Because of the similarity with the violin vibrato (and because the name "tremolo" is already taken by the register), this tends to be called "vibrato" on an accordion but isn't. Instead it is a different and much subtle mechanism for loudness variations, namely another form of tremolo.

 

[Glug]

And one last question: I love the sound of the tiny Starlet, but it is too limiting. Can someone recommend a box that has that beautiful musette sound, but more keys, that same look with the gold anodized grill, and will not use up all my retirement savings? Mahalo. And oh, yes, I owe you all so much that if you are in Hawaii and want to see a volcano, drop by. We have three guest bedrooms, one of which has accordions in it. Aloha

Following what Ventura said, it would also be a good idea to try some MMM boxes (shop or borrowed etc) before you decide what is your 'perfect' mussette. If you like old french for example MMM was the original tuning.

 

[dak]

Following what Ventura said, it would also be a good idea to try some MMM boxes (shop or borrowed etc) before you decide what is your 'perfect' mussette. If you like old french for example MMM was the original tuning.

The namesake for Musette sound is a form of bagpipe that got replaced by accordion as a lead instrument. This was at a time when ensembles were acoustic and the lead had to cut through on a noisy dance floor. That is not exactly the quality you need for making recordings. So "original" tunings are not really appreciated in a similar degree as they once were.

 

[Perogie]

PS re-reading this post, I think I'm down with a bad case of SAD (squeezebox acquisition disease).

Oh man. Since I've really deep dived back into the accordion after a 11 year break I find myself daydreaming accordion related things constantly and I'm sure my wife thinks I am losing my mind.

She will be talking about kids activities or weekend plans and I'll just randomly say something like "yeah, I should check if there's an accordion shop there or if anything is listed for sale online in that area"

Then she rolls her eyes and realized nothing she said has penetrated my brain and walks away.

 

[Glug]

Oh man. Since I've really deep dived back into the accordion after a 11 year break I find myself daydreaming accordion related things constantly and I'm sure my wife thinks I am losing my mind.

She will be talking about kids activities or weekend plans and I'll just randomly say something like "yeah, I should check if there's an accordion shop there or if anything is listed for sale online in that area"

Then she rolls her eyes and realized nothing she said has penetrated my brain and walks away.

I'm sure there are some romantic accordion tunes you could play for her ...
Possibly not a great idea

 

[OuijaBoard]

In relation to Weltmeister? Not really. They don't have the kind of personnel to do much innovation any more, but they are indeed producing in-house. That's part of the reason for their numerous insolvencies. I'll admit that I don't have up to date news after the last one regarding the ratio of their in-house work, but while I was keeping up, they had a much more solid claim to German workmanship than Hohner.

Techs who would know have indicated to me that what's in the Bravos and the Welt folk-size PAs is Czech macchina reeds along the lines of what's in Delicia too. They are not Chinese-made reeds. They may be Chinese set and voiced, which can be inconsistent and at times problematic, but they are not Chinese reeds. Delicia and Weltmeister also have upgrade possibilities including Italian and TAM. But you have to be going through a dealer that has that ordering pipeline open with those makers.

 

[Hilobox]

A Leslie speaker does not produce "tremolo" but a complex combination of tremolo, vibrato (frequency variation), and spatial response, with the Doppler being responsible for part of the frequency variation.

The rotating drum for the low frequency speaker comes closer to a "mere" tremolo as the drum runs slower than the horn. The ratio between vibrato/tremolo/Doppler effects for the horn also depends on whether the "deflector" baffles inside the horn have been left in place or removed (a frequent modification).

So, uhm, no, that's only partly tremolo but to a significant degree something else. Some organs have an "Unda Maris" register for combining into a tremolo sound that works like an accordion tremolo does. A violin does "tremolo" by doing the equivalent of a bellows shake with the bowing hand. It can do "vibrato" by a sort of shaking movement with the fingering hand. You can do similar movements with a fingering hand on an accordion, or a fanning motion with the bellows hand. Because of the similarity with the violin vibrato (and because the name "tremolo" is already taken by the register), this tends to be called "vibrato" on an accordion but isn't. Instead it is a different and much subtle mechanism for loudness variations, namely another form of tremolo.

Wow, and I thought I knew how Leslies worked. Our (cheap) Thomas organ‘s “Leslie” had only the drum, but with a horizontal axle, lightweight plywood drum, which redirected the side-firing 12” speaker. My friend’s Gulbranson had an external case with a rotating drum with three 6x9 drivers. I never knew anyone with the B3 type with the rotating horns on top and drum below. I was only 17 and not rich. All the organs had electronic vibrato (frequency changes). The rest you describe are well beyond my very limited musical knowledge, and I am beyond impressed. Thank you.

 

[Hilobox]

Oh man. Since I've really deep dived back into the accordion after a 11 year break I find myself daydreaming accordion related things constantly and I'm sure my wife thinks I am losing my mind.

She will be talking about kids activities or weekend plans and I'll just randomly say something like "yeah, I should check if there's an accordion shop there or if anything is listed for sale online in that area"

Then she rolls her eyes and realized nothing she said has penetrated my brain and walks away.

It must be a disease, likely transmitted on the Y chromosome, and manifested during the Covid lockdown, and exacerbated by online socialization through this forum. I think it is terminal.

 

[OuijaBoard]

The preference for a certain amount of tremolo is very personal. You may love or hate an accordion just for the amount of tremolo it has.
But of course that can be changed to your liking. The trouble is, when the accordion does not have the tremolo you like, how can you explain to a technician what the tremolo should be so that you will love it?
I have done a fair bit of tremolo tuning, and so far I have been quite good at guessing what the owner really wants. On one occasion a lady had gone to two different tuners already and still didn't like what her (expensive) accordion (with cassotto) sounded like in the MM register. When she came to collect the accordion from me she was in tears of joy of how it sounded. Different people ask for different tremolo, even on the exact same accordion model. Everything is possible, but whether you get what you want really depends on what you specify or guess it should be.

This touches on a question I've had from posts here . . . Like yourself, my longtime techs regularly alter tremolo to taste for clients including touring pro's. They've never indicated that this is harmful or should not be done. But here at accordionists.info I've read dark warnings about the supposed evils and dangers of thinning or thickening tremolo. Is it that a certain amount of alteration is OK but past a certain point it's problematic? Or . . . ? My techs have repeatedly adjusted tremolo for me, though come to think of it it's never been by more than 5-7 cents.

If you adjust tremolo and my tech wizzes adjust tremolo, why is it sometimes discussed as problematic?

I've been eyeing an MMM PA that I think is pretty wet from the factory, perhaps around +/- 20. Would there be anything problematic about thinning to +/- 10 or 12 cents?