Thinking about investing in a high-end bayan, looking for advice

[platypus]

Hello all,

As the title says, I'm thinking about sinking a lot of money into a nice, high-quality B-system bayan. Currently, I have a Tula Etude which I purchased second-hand and which is in pretty good condition though I am planning to learn how to tune it. Initially, I was going to buy something like a Yasnaya Polyana before I realised that I might get more value for money if I were to purchase a five-row model. It also occurred to me that buying a more expensive accordion now might be a good idea since inflation would presumably drive prices up in the future while a good quality bayan should theoretically last me for years. I'm unlikely to give up this hobby and I've aspirations of trying to swing a career out of it if possible.

At first I was tempted to buy this Jupiter(https://accordion-bayan.com/accordions/2819) from the same people I bought my Etude from. However, I did some research and, after stumbling across some older posts on this forum, discovered that there are in fact two Jupiter companies and this appears to be one of the less well regarded company's models that was possibly made in North Korea. I've seen a few videos of this sort of bayan and the sound is nice enough, but I'm now kind of on the fence.

The other options I'm looking at are to buy either the Rusich or the Mir from them (https://accordion-bayan.com/accordions-new/). Visually I prefer the Rusich, but I am slightly concerned that the product description has been lifted straight from the page for the Mir, to the point that it literally says Mir when you are trying to find out about the Rusich. Does anyone have any experience playing either of these two models?

The most recent option I found was to buy a restored Jupiter or similar from this guy: https://bellobasso.com/instruments Does anyone have any experience or feedback buying from this vendor?

If anyone can recommend another vendor, it would be much appreciated. If it helps, I live in Ireland.

Other than narrowing down which bayan I'd like to purchase, my main concern is spending a large sum of money on an accordion that could potentially be damaged during shipping.

 

[OuijaBoard]

By "high-end," would you mean, freebass, cassotto, etc.? Others here are vastly more knowledgeable than yours truly, but Bugari and Pigini surely are two of the "biggies." I think Giustozzi may also offer one.

 

[platypus]

By "high-end," would you mean, freebass, cassotto, etc.? Others here are vastly more knowledgeable than yours truly, but Bugari and Pigini surely are two of the "biggies." I think Giustozzi may also offer one.

Something with five rows, solid piece reeds, converter, multiple registers... I guess maybe with cassotto?

 

[OuijaBoard]

Here is a page showing several Pigini Converter models. Someone more knowledgeable than myself would need to help with whether any of the "B" system instruments have or can be ordered with authentic Bayan reed and bass engineering. Sometimes makers seem to use the term "Bayan" generically to mean luxe, premium B system converter/freebass accordions. I'm not knowledgeable as to whether "Bayans" by Pigini or Bugari have the construction that gives a Russian Bayan its characteristic timbre.

Convertor - Pigini Accordions

With a key-range from 20 to 64 right notes, from 16 to 58 left notes, and from 72 to 120 basses, we offer the most complete assortment of free bass models available on the market.

www.pigini.com

 

[debra]

There is nothing "wrong" with the bayan on offer by the Harmony musical workshop except maybe the price, especially once you add possible import duties and VAT. If you find the tone to be too sharp, a layer of felt under the grille will easily cure that.
Buying a new Russian bayan like the other Jupiter (www.bajan.ru) or AKKO (https://bayanakko.ru/en) is likely close to impossible as long as Russia keeps attacking Ukraine...
It is still possible to buy a Zonta (from Belarus) but my experience with Zonta so far has been less than perfect (trying to be very mild here).
When you buy any such high-end bayan you should consider the matter of maintenance and repair. What happens when one of the reeds on these large multi-reed plates breaks? Not all accordion repairers may be willing to help you out because they cannot easily replace a single reed on these plates.
If you want to spend a lot of money on a really good bayan, have a look at what the major Italian factories have on offer. Also consider that you are unlikely to really need a 64/120 bayan, as the lowest notes are essentially never used. If you consider for instance a Bugari 580/ARS/C you get 61 notes (low G to highest G) in a very fine instrument. These do occasionally appear on the used accordion market but you need a lot of patience for one to appear. (There is a top-end version of the same instrument, the Bugari Nextra, but that doesn't just cost an arm and a leg but two arms and legs...

 

[OuijaBoard]

Here is a page showing a slew of Bugari converters:

Fisarmoniche – Bugari Armando Accordions

www.bugariarmando.com

 

[petch]

The most recent option I found was to buy a restored Jupiter or similar from this guy: https://bellobasso.com/instruments Does anyone have any experience or feedback buying from this vendor?

I have not bought an instrument from him but I did have a custom made to fit case made for my accordion from him (it was actually made in Ukraine, but he has the contacts, know-how and language to actually get the wheels in motion) and I have no complaints - he was friendly and helpful. Not the cheapest for what I got, but not an unfair price either all things considered

I know there are a couple of people in Western Europe that could get you an Akko or Jupiter made an imported, but as Paul says the chance of that happening currently is basically zero

Obviously you can order from any Italian factory (or their dealers) and have a new B system accordion made but it won't be cheap!

I do know someone local with a Guilietti B system free bass converter that they no longer play and they are willing to sell it. They're based in West Yorkshire and I very much doubt he'd ship it, so you'd have to come collect it. The benefit of that is that you can try before you buy

 

[platypus]

There is nothing "wrong" with the bayan on offer by the Harmony musical workshop except maybe the price, especially once you add possible import duties and VAT. If you find the tone to be too sharp, a layer of felt under the grille will easily cure that.
Buying a new Russian bayan like the other Jupiter (www.bajan.ru) or AKKO (https://bayanakko.ru/en) is likely close to impossible as long as Russia keeps attacking Ukraine...
It is still possible to buy a Zonta (from Belarus) but my experience with Zonta so far has been less than perfect (trying to be very mild here).
When you buy any such high-end bayan you should consider the matter of maintenance and repair. What happens when one of the reeds on these large multi-reed plates breaks? Not all accordion repairers may be willing to help you out because they cannot easily replace a single reed on these plates.
If you want to spend a lot of money on a really good bayan, have a look at what the major Italian factories have on offer. Also consider that you are unlikely to really need a 64/120 bayan, as the lowest notes are essentially never used. If you consider for instance a Bugari 580/ARS/C you get 61 notes (low G to highest G) in a very fine instrument. These do occasionally appear on the used accordion market but you need a lot of patience for one to appear. (There is a top-end version of the same instrument, the Bugari Nextra, but that doesn't just cost an arm and a leg but two arms and legs...

The problem I've found is that I really like the sound of Russian bayans. My understanding though is that I can probably get a non-Russian bayan tuned to sound similar/the same as a Russian one? I'm not 100% on technical details.

How likely is it that a reed will break? I've played Irish button accordion for 13 years and never had any problems, though I did have to get an accordion serviced once, but I understand that the construction of such instruments is much different to a bayan.

 

[platypus]

I have not bought an instrument from him but I did have a custom made to fit case made for my accordion from him (it was actually made in Ukraine, but he has the contacts, know-how and language to actually get the wheels in motion) and I have no complaints - he was friendly and helpful. Not the cheapest for what I got, but not an unfair price either all things considered

I know there are a couple of people in Western Europe that could get you an Akko or Jupiter made an imported, but as Paul says the chance of that happening currently is basically zero

Obviously you can order from any Italian factory (or their dealers) and have a new B system accordion made but it won't be cheap!

I do know someone local with a Guilietti B system free bass converter that they no longer play and they are willing to sell it. They're based in West Yorkshire and I very much doubt he'd ship it, so you'd have to come collect it. The benefit of that is that you can try before you buy

Thanks for the tip regarding your friend/acquaintance, but I'm not sure if I'd have the time to nip over to England at the moment.

 

[debra]

The problem I've found is that I really like the sound of Russian bayans. My understanding though is that I can probably get a non-Russian bayan tuned to sound similar/the same as a Russian one? I'm not 100% on technical details.

How likely is it that a reed will break? I've played Irish button accordion for 13 years and never had any problems, though I did have to get an accordion serviced once, but I understand that the construction of such instruments is much different to a bayan.

An Italian (or other non-Russian, non-North-Korean, non-Belarussian) bayan will not sound the same as a Russian bayan. If you really want the sound of a Russian bayan there is no other option than buying a Russian bayan.
Russian bayans at least in part owe their sound to the very strong steel of the reed tongues on the large multi-reed plates. That very strong steel allows for very responsive reeds and large bass reeds... but the strong stiff steel is more likely to break than the softer steel used for Italian reeds.
Accordion/bayan repair, including replacing reed tongues is part of the professional bayan training in conservatories (so I heard). At least some Russian and other bayan players can repair their own bayans, some even during a short break in a concert. In Europe accordion courses at the conservatory result in teachers and concert accordionists who cannot repair anything on their instruments...

 

[platypus]

Here is a page showing several Pigini Converter models. Someone more knowledgeable than myself would need to help with whether any of the "B" system instruments have or can be ordered with authentic Bayan reed and bass engineering. Sometimes makers seem to use the term "Bayan" generically to mean luxe, premium B system converter/freebass accordions. I'm not knowledgeable as to whether "Bayans" by Pigini or Bugari have the construction that gives a Russian Bayan its characteristic timbre.

Convertor - Pigini Accordions

With a key-range from 20 to 64 right notes, from 16 to 58 left notes, and from 72 to 120 basses, we offer the most complete assortment of free bass models available on the market.

www.pigini.com

Here is a page showing a slew of Bugari converters:

Fisarmoniche – Bugari Armando Accordions

www.bugariarmando.com

Thanks for the links, I'll take a look.

 

[Siegmund]

I have met the owner of Bello Basso at a music festival in the summer of 2022, and can tell you he comes highly recommended as a bayan repairer/restorer - of course being "best" is about the same as being "only" when it comes to bayans in the western USA.
I've not had occasion to buy anything from him myself.

 

[bapi]

Hello all,

As the title says, I'm thinking about sinking a lot of money into a nice, high-quality B-system bayan. Currently, I have a Tula Etude which I purchased second-hand and which is in pretty good condition though I am planning to learn how to tune it. Initially, I was going to buy something like a Yasnaya Polyana before I realised that I might get more value for money if I were to purchase a five-row model. It also occurred to me that buying a more expensive accordion now might be a good idea since inflation would presumably drive prices up in the future while a good quality bayan should theoretically last me for years. I'm unlikely to give up this hobby and I've aspirations of trying to swing a career out of it if possible.

At first I was tempted to buy this Jupiter(https://accordion-bayan.com/accordions/2819) from the same people I bought my Etude from. However, I did some research and, after stumbling across some older posts on this forum, discovered that there are in fact two Jupiter companies and this appears to be one of the less well regarded company's models that was possibly made in North Korea. I've seen a few videos of this sort of bayan and the sound is nice enough, but I'm now kind of on the fence.

The other options I'm looking at are to buy either the Rusich or the Mir from them (https://accordion-bayan.com/accordions-new/). Visually I prefer the Rusich, but I am slightly concerned that the product description has been lifted straight from the page for the Mir, to the point that it literally says Mir when you are trying to find out about the Rusich. Does anyone have any experience playing either of these two models?

The most recent option I found was to buy a restored Jupiter or similar from this guy: https://bellobasso.com/instruments Does anyone have any experience or feedback buying from this vendor?

If anyone can recommend another vendor, it would be much appreciated. If it helps, I live in Ireland.

Other than narrowing down which bayan I'd like to purchase, my main concern is spending a large sum of money on an accordion that could potentially be damaged during shipping.

Hello all,

As the title says, I'm thinking about sinking a lot of money into a nice, high-quality B-system bayan. Currently, I have a Tula Etude which I purchased second-hand and which is in pretty good condition though I am planning to learn how to tune it. Initially, I was going to buy something like a Yasnaya Polyana before I realised that I might get more value for money if I were to purchase a five-row model. It also occurred to me that buying a more expensive accordion now might be a good idea since inflation would presumably drive prices up in the future while a good quality bayan should theoretically last me for years. I'm unlikely to give up this hobby and I've aspirations of trying to swing a career out of it if possible.

At first I was tempted to buy this Jupiter(https://accordion-bayan.com/accordions/2819) from the same people I bought my Etude from. However, I did some research and, after stumbling across some older posts on this forum, discovered that there are in fact two Jupiter companies and this appears to be one of the less well regarded company's models that was possibly made in North Korea. I've seen a few videos of this sort of bayan and the sound is nice enough, but I'm now kind of on the fence.

The other options I'm looking at are to buy either the Rusich or the Mir from them (https://accordion-bayan.com/accordions-new/). Visually I prefer the Rusich, but I am slightly concerned that the product description has been lifted straight from the page for the Mir, to the point that it literally says Mir when you are trying to find out about the Rusich. Does anyone have any experience playing either of these two models?

The most recent option I found was to buy a restored Jupiter or similar from this guy: https://bellobasso.com/instruments Does anyone have any experience or feedback buying from this vendor?

If anyone can recommend another vendor, it would be much appreciated. If it helps, I live in Ireland.

Other than narrowing down which bayan I'd like to purchase, my main concern is spending a large sum of money on an accordion that could potentially be damaged during shipping.

My friend bought an A.arapro Jupiter from Bello, which cost about 200,000 yuan. You can see the video of the piano on youtube, and I can use it every day. I can give a very pertinent evaluation. Its sound is very beautiful, and the right hand is more ideal than the left hand, but because its voci is in his twenties, so since the first week of using it, many voci began to have problems, but Bello basso can't be well guaranteed, so when yuri shishkin came home from China, he took the voci away.

 

[platypus]

An Italian (or other non-Russian, non-North-Korean, non-Belarussian) bayan will not sound the same as a Russian bayan. If you really want the sound of a Russian bayan there is no other option than buying a Russian bayan.
Russian bayans at least in part owe their sound to the very strong steel of the reed tongues on the large multi-reed plates. That very strong steel allows for very responsive reeds and large bass reeds... but the strong stiff steel is more likely to break than the softer steel used for Italian reeds.
Accordion/bayan repair, including replacing reed tongues is part of the professional bayan training in conservatories (so I heard). At least some Russian and other bayan players can repair their own bayans, some even during a short break in a concert. In Europe accordion courses at the conservatory result in teachers and concert accordionists who cannot repair anything on their instruments...

So, in theory, I can maybe learn how to carry out repairs, but I would need to either attend a conservatory (unlikely at this time), find someone who has such training/skills, or learn how to do it via the internet? Though obviously finding a proper repairer would be best.

 

[debra]

So, in theory, I can maybe learn how to carry out repairs, but I would need to either attend a conservatory (unlikely at this time), find someone who has such training/skills, or learn how to do it via the internet? Though obviously finding a proper repairer would be best.

Well, you would need to attend a conservatory in former Soviet states (like Belarus, Ukraine or Russia). In the Western world it seems that conservatories only teach music theory, history, and playing and very little about the instruments, and although a violin training includes learning how to replace a string and how to tune the violin, accordion courses do not teach even the most basic elements of accordion maintenance and repair. There are courses in instrument construction, maintenance and repair, and for accordion I was lucky to find the Accordion Craft Academy, taught by people from the Victoria factory, but while a lot of what is taught in these courses does apply to a Russian bayan as well as western accordions some things are really different and dealing with the large multi-reed plates containing reeds made of harder steel than Italian reeds... that is not part of these courses. I "get by" with what I learned there, but even something as simple as fixing a broken reed is far from trivial because you cannot readily buy reed tongues made out of the right steel and having more or less the right size...
I really love playing my AKKO bayan, but if I were to make the buying decision again I would think more long term and buy an Italian bayan. Not exactly the same sound, but at least I could do all the maintenance and repair with what I learned in Italy and using Italian accordion parts.

 

[dak]

Well, you would need to attend a conservatory in former Soviet states (like Belarus, Ukraine or Russia). In the Western world it seems that conservatories only teach music theory, history, and playing and very little about the instruments, and although a violin training includes learning how to replace a string and how to tune the violin, accordion courses do not teach even the most basic elements of accordion maintenance and repair.

It's not much better for violin. It is essential to recognize when the bridge develops a bad tilt (which will happen eventually with tuning) and be able to adjust it. If you don't have the proper technique for doing that, you are likely to snap it. Been there, done that, had the luthier give me the talk and tutorial (he wasn't enthused about having to carve another bridge in what was a comparatively short lifetime for the first after an extensive cover plate repair).

Not part of the curriculum I guess.

 

[debra]

It's not much better for violin. It is essential to recognize when the bridge develops a bad tilt (which will happen eventually with tuning) and be able to adjust it. If you don't have the proper technique for doing that, you are likely to snap it. Been there, done that, had the luthier give me the talk and tutorial (he wasn't enthused about having to carve another bridge in what was a comparatively short lifetime for the first after an extensive cover plate repair).

Not part of the curriculum I guess.

Not part of the curriculum? That's really bad. My father was an amateur violin player, and even as an amateur he was taught (in music school) how to replace strings and tune the violin without breaking the bridge.
But accordion players are taught nothing about maintenance and repair, and their teachers are not taught anything about maintenance and repair either. When they experience a stuck reed (dust particle blocking the reed, happens a lot with piccolo reeds) they need to go to a repairer. When a valve falls off (causing a note to suddenly develop quite a bit of tremolo), they need to go to a repairer. Somehow they don't seem to get tired of this and enroll in a repair course... They just learn that this note only works on draw, that note is out of tune on push, etc... and try to work around the problems while playing until they can find the time to visit a repairer...

 

[tcabot]

The problem I've found is that I really like the sound of Russian bayans. My understanding though is that I can probably get a non-Russian bayan tuned to sound similar/the same as a Russian one? I'm not 100% on technical details.

Won't sound the same unfortunately. Different reeds, different box design.

Tula etude to a top-end Jupiter is a very big jump.

Some advice:
- Don't buy anything remotely expensive without trying the box in person, ideally for a few hours, and have your regular instrument with you to compare side-by-side. Or at the very least try a similar model to the one you're buying.
- Buying old used Jupiters can be a minefield - they most likely have had a very, very tough life being played daily by professionals for many hours a day. The reeds would be exceptionally well maintained, but don't be surprised if the keyboard mechs have completely worn through.
- Try as many boxes as possible before you commit. There's a lot of really nice boxes in the price range that you're looking at!
- I am not currently authorised by the PRA to provide financial advice, but an accordion is unlikely to work out as an "Investment".

 

[debra]

Some advice:
- Don't buy anything remotely expensive without trying the box in person, ideally for a few hours, and have your regular instrument with you to compare side-by-side. Or at the very least try a similar model to the one you're buying.
- Buying old used Jupiters can be a minefield - they most likely have had a very, very tough life being played daily by professionals for many hours a day. The reeds would be exceptionally well maintained, but don't be surprised if the keyboard mechs have completely worn through.
- Try as many boxes as possible before you commit. There's a lot of really nice boxes in the price range that you're looking at!
- I am not currently authorised by the PRA to provide financial advice, but an accordion is unlikely to work out as an "Investment".

That is very sound advice. Make sure to also check the inside of an old used bayan.
You may find all sorts of problems inside. Buying a used Russian bayan is really stepping into a minefield.
Here are just a few examples:

Reed plates that should be easily removable (with hooks or screws) were glued so they could not be removed. Also, piccolo reeds that should be upside down (for better response and the possibility to do tuning inside) were not upside down.

Excessive scratching and use of dremel caused significant rust on the reeds.

Poor thin foam gasket under the reed block instead of a proper leather gasket.

 

[platypus]

Won't sound the same unfortunately. Different reeds, different box design.

Tula etude to a top-end Jupiter is a very big jump.

Some advice:
- Don't buy anything remotely expensive without trying the box in person, ideally for a few hours, and have your regular instrument with you to compare side-by-side. Or at the very least try a similar model to the one you're buying.
- Buying old used Jupiters can be a minefield - they most likely have had a very, very tough life being played daily by professionals for many hours a day. The reeds would be exceptionally well maintained, but don't be surprised if the keyboard mechs have completely worn through.
- Try as many boxes as possible before you commit. There's a lot of really nice boxes in the price range that you're looking at!
- I am not currently authorised by the PRA to provide financial advice, but an accordion is unlikely to work out as an "Investment".

Yes, thinking about it again, a Jupiter is probably a bit much. At this juncture, I'd probably go with something like a higher-end Tula.

When I said investment, it was less in a financial sense and meant something like 'I like playing the accordion/bayan and a higher-quality instrument will sound better and last longer than something that is second-hand and refurbished, therefore I will get lots of enjoyment out of it in the long run'.