Zerro sette B 11

[Elizabeth]

Hi all,
Its me again.
My first accordion was a zero sette B 11 and i still really like it. Im trying to understand why i really like it. of course, the size and weight and its feel and hold are perfect. I really like its bright, crisp clear sound. Sometimes i crave a little more of a high quality sound though. It is a 72 bass, lmm.
Jump ahead several years: i wanted to grow up to a 120 bass, which i did.and it also gave me the experience of a double tone chamber.
Now several years later, my ambitions have moderated and im wanting to go to a 96 bass by way of a trade in of my 120 bass and the smallest i have, a 60 bass.i bought them at petosas so am hoping to go there for a trade in transaction, also the only accordion store at a reasonable traveling distance.
What makes a clean, bright sound? I see on zero sette website theres a b 12 ordomething that is 96 bass.
Do all double tone chambers have the rich mellow sound, or is tuning a big factor?
I know you all cant make my decisions tor me…but i sure enjoy reading the comments and discussions from knowledgeable and experienced people. After i recover enough from surgrry i will go back to the store and play the pa s. Unless im needing to switch to a cba…merry christmas, all!

 

[debra]

All double tone chamber accordions have "a" rich mellow sound (in the reeds that are actually in cassotto), but there are significant differences...
First of all, even with tone chamber the reeds are still important. You can hear the difference in sound between accordions that are identical except for having different quality/type of reds. (When you do not hear them side by side you might not know the difference.)
There is a difference in the effect of the cassotto depending on the position of the reed block. The block deepest inside the cassotto will have a more mellow (and a bit stronger) sound than the block near the "exit". The difference is most noticeable on the reeds closest to the exit on the block closest to the exit. Typically when L and M are in cassotto the M reeds are the ones closest to the exit and therefore you notice the difference most on the M reeds. Typically most of the black keys are in that position on a PA, so white keys sound more mellow than black keys. There are differences between accordions: some have a more noticeable difference (especially accordions with 3 blocks in cassotto), some have a nicer sound in the M register (Hohner Morino for instance) but most have a nicer sound in the L register. This explains why jazz musicians often use the L register and then need higher notes. (There are jazz accordions starting from low G and going up to high C, a total of 42 notes.)
Some accordions have unobstructed sound coming out of the cassotto for a bit brighter and especially louder sound (Morino M series for instance) and most have some type of obstruction, like a solid part of the grille plus the register mechanism. When that solid part is large, as in Giulietti accordions, the sound of the cassotto becomes even more mellow. (Sadly, a non-cassotto Giulietti has a noticibly uneven sound between white and black keys because of the grille.)
So hopefully it will be clear that accordions with cassotto can still have significantly different sound depending on all the aspects mentioned above. You should really "try before you buy" and try several accordions of similar specification, from different brands.

 

[Elizabeth]

Mind blowing detail, you sure know stuff! Im impressed.thank you tor all this information. Trying out accordions sure is the thing to do.

 

[godgi]

i have always played a non cossotto pigini and longed for a cossotto instrument. i got a second hand hohner full bells and whistles double cossotto piccolo and basson. i didn't like the instrument as it was toooo large had base mechanism issues and the cossotto was a non event i didnt like it -it was over rich like an organ sound and i felt the closeness to the reed operation was lost. the lure of a cossoto instriment gone for me. i do not see the need for it particulary in basson block. if your bassoon is alreafy good very few people would know the difference.
i am opening a can of worms here but at my age i feel i can say what i feel.
godgi

 

[Dingo40]

"...it was toooo large had base mechanism issues and the cossotto was a non event i didnt like it -it was over rich like an organ sound..."
Very good points, godgi ?
Often we fall in love with the idea but the reality doesn't stack up ?
Someone once said, "Sell the sizzle, not the meat!"?
This reminds me of a salesperson in a sewing equipment store who told my wife and me of how she herself had longed for a you beaut sewing machine with all the bells and whistles. When she finally got it, it proved to be too complicated and physically too heavy to be comfortable for her to use: she's now looking for a replacement of her basic but adequate and light "Elna Lotus "
( the equivalent of an organetto in the sewing machine world)?

 

[Waldo]

Dingo,
I, too, am a stitcher. I have a beautiful, lo mileage, portable Elna (that I haven't used in 10 years) that is an excellent machine. It's a straight stitch only that I used on remote jobs. I also have 2 commercial machines, a German made Singer 307G, Zig-Zag w/double needle capability and a Japanese Juki 1541 compound walking-foot. I use them mostly for Auto upholstery and Sail repair (although I haven't done much since I went to one eye). I make all my own back pads in a cool diamond pleat pattern and repair/modify shoulder and bass straps, if asked. Both my commercials are on an equivalent level to an Excelsior 940, in the accordion world.

 

[Dingo40]

Waldo,
My wife is the seamstress, I just go along for moral support ?
Those old Elnas were very basic in their offerings (straight, zigzag & buttonhole stitch. A walking foot and edging seam were available as optional extras, and that was about it. But they were made in Switzerland, machined steel, very compact, relatively light and portable, and the quilters loved them ( still do!?) .
What's more, they carried a 25 year unconditional warranty ( try to get one of those these days ?)
(Ours has gone twice as long with only one part needing replacement ?)
See here ?:

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/morayfield/sewing-machines/vintage-elna-lotus-sewing-machine-zz-serviced-made-in-switzerland/1283771977

 

[Waldo]

Dingo said: What's more, they carried a 25 year unconditional warranty ( try to get one of those these days ?)
(Ours has gone twice as long with only one part needing replacement).

And this is why they can offer such a warranty.
Quality always gives way to profit!

The "Hot Tip" quilters machine, around here, is the Singer "Lightweight". The 222K model is most popular. Nice machines, but pricy due to their popularity ($450-650 US). I got out of the bidding, on a close to NOS example, at auction at $475. It closed at $685. It included the desirable "Tall case w/tray" option.

 

[Ffingers]

My mother had the SouthWest Wales agency for Elna sewing machines and for Passap knitting machines way back in the late '50s and early '60s.
Selling them to conservative countryfolk was a bit of an uphill battle but returns were extremely rare and calls for service assistance even less common.
It was many years before any turned up in the "Exchange and Mart" secondhand goods pages; once people got used to them, they kept them.
Swiss production engineering at its best.

 

[Dingo40]

@Swiss production engineering at its best."

My wife got her's circa 1970.
I think we paid $A90.
Currently, they are selling (second hand) at around $A400+.
Of course, they're not the same dollars ?
At the same time, council rates were approximately $A76 for the year on an average suburban house , so not cheap!?
Reliable, durable, easy to use : no regrets!??
BTW: similar to what happened with my Bugari ch cass PA, the only thing that broke/wore out was the single plastic component!?
This was replaced with a machined steel substitute!??

 

[hais1273]

Try as many different instruments as you can to get a balanced feel for what you like. I bought a new 4 voice 34/96 or instrument in 2017, I think I tried 7 variations on the 34/72 or 96 theme from at least 4 manufacturers. I eventually settled on a Vignoni LMMM with "a mano" reeds. Don't forget to get to someone to play your choice to you before buying so you know what it sounds like in front of the instrument.