Understanding bass clef notation?

[aaronishappy]

Ive often come across many songs through sheet music which has notation that I cant seem to fully grasp. It looks like the notation one would use for a piano. I havent been long playing so I can really only understand sheet music for the accordion when its written like this song. Im gonna upload another example.

Lets take Hava Nagilah, I can see that it is an E, but after that, an E what? Major, minor, 7? I know Ill be told to just play it and see if it sounds right but at my skill level right now, it takes at least a day for me to learn how to play some treble and bass staves in conjunction, so I dont want to be wasting time in case it doesnt sound right and also it would just be more useful if I knew!

Hope you guys can help...

 

[Pippa]

OK take Hava Nagilah. You can see that its an E, but you dont know if its a major or minor. What notes are in the E major chord, and what notes are in the E minor chord? If youre not sure, heres a reference:

http://www.piano-lessons-made-simple.com/basic-piano-chords.html

So E major is E-G#-B and E minor is E G B. Because Hava Nagilah has a G#, its E major.

 

[aaronishappy]

Ok, cool. Then after that is it A minor? And for La Noyee, the first one would be E minor...?

Is it that easy

 

[Pippa]

Yes - you got it

 

[barkis]

When there are 3 notes at ones, does the chord get its name from the note on top or from the note on the bottom?

 

[Pippa]

Depends how it's written/played. It gets its name from the root note, and if it's written to be played on the accordion that is generally the bottom note. But on for example a piano, chords can be played "inverted" so an E major chord that would normally be written from the bottom to the top as E G# B might have the B played an octave lower, and thus the B would appear at the bottom, but the chord would still be an E.

 

[donn]

Similarly when they're not 3 at once. The opening bar of Hava Nagila could have gone to B on the 3rd count, and it would just have been your alternate bass on E, not (probably) a B7.

 

[Glenn]

To be quite honest, there are far better versions of this tune for accordion. I doubt that this was ever intended for accordion anyway.
The notation where the chords are written out with the chord names and flavours (maj, min etc.) is quite common.
One advantage is that it spells out the rhythm expected in the left hand which simple chord symbols cannot.

 

[Zevy]

<FONT font=Garamond><SIZE size=125><COLOR color=#0040FF>I must be brief, but here goes: Hava Nagila is a tune in the freygish mode. If the first chord is E major, then the 3 chords mostly used are E major, A minor, and D minor. And there should be no accidentals in the key signature. Its hard to explain in a few sentences.
Heres a link to a sample of an arrangement I made for the accordion: Hava Nagila
It is in D Freygish, but its the same. I played this song with a band in the movie, The Sitter. That was an experience.

Good luck!

 

[JIM D.]

Zevy your quite correct. The tune Hava Nagila has been and is still played in the standard key of A minor by most musician's. The chords used are E 7- A minor -and -D minor.

 

[donn]

Wouldn't that be A minor, more or less? Closest common western scale harmonic minor, but maybe with a raised 4th, which would be one reason to stay away from E7, which would normally be OK with harmonic minor. I should stop my music theorizing here, it isn't my specialty exactly.

 

[JIM D.]

Donn: I just sat down with a box and ran thru it. Your right, the key signature is A minor (C) and the chords are E7, A minor, and D minor.

 

[dunlustin]

It may be worth saying that it is not unusual for "trad" tunes to have non-standard scales.
For example an otherwise major tune will have a (systematically) flattened 7th. Some players of these tunes feel that it is "better" to harmonise using only the notes in the scale.
The trend in diatonic "boxes" to have no 3rd in the Left-hand offers more LH options and also gives ambiguous chords that may better fit many trad tunes.
Is it stating the obvious that in accordion bass, note stem down = bass note, stem up = chord.
On the Tiersen tune, I wonder if the notation follows the inversions of the Stradella chords?
I'm too lazy to work it out but notice that some chords are in root pos'n (eg Gmajor)while others have an inversion (eg Dmajor)
If that's the case it does seem a bit "picky."

 

[Zevy]

<FONT font=Garamond><SIZE size=125>In the Freygish or Phrygian mode, E Freygish would have no accidentals in the key signature, but that doesnt mean that the key is A minor. The root, or tonic is E, not A. In this key, the basic scale is: EFG#ABCDE. The G sharps are generally notated each time as accidentals. Sometimes one might place a lone G# in the key signature and avoid those accidentals, but that practice is the exception rather than the rule.
I hope I didnt get too technical here...

 

[Pippa]

Also worth pointing out to Aaron that all this discussion on non-standard scales, Fregish/Phrygian modes etc doesn't really apply to the original question about reading chords in bass clef for accordion!

 

[barkis]

Is it stating the obvious that in accordion bass, note stem down = bass note, stem up = chord.

Thats not how it is in the book I learn from. It is usually the other way around but if the notes are written together they go in the same direction.

go down can mean two things also, depending if you start at the dot or not.

 

[donn]

In the Freygish or Phrygian mode, E Freygish would have no accidentals in the key signature, but that doesnt mean that the key is A minor. The root, or tonic is E, not A. In this key, the basic scale is: EFG#ABCDE. The G sharps are generally notated each time as accidentals. Sometimes one might place a lone G# in the key signature and avoid those accidentals, but that practice is the exception rather than the rule.
I hope I didnt get too technical here...

... or maybe not technical enough. This is the sort of thing that reminds me that Im not a reader, though I can read music after a fashion (though not so much on the accordion specifically.) I have been given music, for saxophone, that had what struck me as silly key signatures - either not economical in terms of accidentals, probably for similar considerations as above, or with frequent key signature changes between unfamiliar keys ... and Ive copied them into something easier to read. I take for granted that there really is a reason for all this stuff, but it doesnt apply to me - I am not really reading at that level, I just use the paper to find out what notes to play.

 

[BobM]

I have been given music, for saxophone, that had what struck me as silly key signatures - either not economical in terms of accidentals, probably for similar considerations as above, or with frequent key signature changes between unfamiliar keys ...

The reason for silly keys is often so the music is sits in a sweet spot for the instrument being featured. A lot of big band music was written in Db (5 flats) to squeeze 5 harmonised sax parts within the range of the instruments, which is uncomfortable for the Double bass, especially on slow ballads. And then theres girl vocal keys which can be great on the trombone, sounding sweet and warm etc etc..

 

[donn]

But what I'm saying is, I copy the part to change the notation - for the same (sounding) notes. The music (as played) isn't the issue, it's how it's written. I suppose the existence of a superior being who would read my copied part and play it differently because it puts the root in the wrong place or something, but as is commonly the case for lesser beings, I can't imagine what that would be like.

 

[Glenn]

Donn, don't forget the saxophone is a transposed instrument so if the band plays in C the sax will play in a key according to its tuning.