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Suggestions of accordion suitable for English folk

But Charlie Lennon was not the accordion player. Joe Burke was the accordion player. I did many master classes with Joe Burke, and he played no chords aside from the occasional major chord. In ITM, piano-vamping conventions are not identical to accordion conventions. One is free to diverge from folk/traditional conventions. But one is also free to respect folk/traditional conventions without being called names.

I should add, the late Joe Burke, RIP. He was a generous and brilliant musician and teacher. I'm also a big admirer of Charlie Lennon as a fiddler and tunesmith as well as a piano-vamper.
I was commenting on if it was appropriate to use major, minor, and 7th chords in traditional Irish music. There is a very long tradition of piano accompaniment, especially in set dancing. In the year 2024 it is now looked down upon to play a major or minor chord with an Irish tune?

More on the OP's original topic, CCPDX recently posted a video of himself playing a set of English tunes. CCPDX, what is the reed configuration and tuning on this accordion?

 
How could he, using that diatonic box? I think the larger ones have exactly one minor chord. A CF one may have D minor. And of course, even those primitive boxes are younger than actual traditional Irish music.

Sure. But the bass sounds of uilleann pipes and bisonoric boxes are kind of the aesthetic for the traditional ITM accordion bass sound. This gets into choices of how we use our "superpowers" on a PA or CBA. These instruments are (unfairly) loathed in many ITM circles due to mis-use of those superpowers. It's a matter of taste, but the finest exponents on unisonoric accordions either: Leave off the basses; Play their basses akin to uilleann pipe or bisonoric accordions, or lastly: Use their chords but do so very quietly--like Karen Tweed. She uses jazz and other colors with her PA chords, but it's very quiet and backgrounded.
 
I was commenting on if it was appropriate to use major, minor, and 7th chords in traditional Irish music. There is a very long tradition of piano accompaniment, especially in set dancing. In the year 2024 it is now looked down upon to play a major or minor chord with an Irish tune?

More on the OP's original topic, CCPDX recently posted a video of himself playing a set of English tunes. CCPDX, what is the reed configuration and tuning on this accordion?



]]]I was commenting on if it was appropriate to use major, minor, and 7th chords in traditional Irish music. There is a very long tradition of piano accompaniment, especially in set dancing. In the year 2024 it is now looked down upon to play a major or minor chord with an Irish tune?[[[

The thread topic as well as my comments referred to accordions. No one has said "In the year 2024 it is now looked down upon to play a major or minor chord with an Irish tune." If you wish to expand from the thread topic away from accordions, far be it from a digressor such as myself to oppose drift. But the thread topic concerned accordions, and my comments focused on accordion basses. Regarding accordions, yes, major chords are used at times. But on accordion, Minor chords, dominant 7ths, jazz chords, suss chords, etcetera . . . you can use them, but it's more of a quote-unquote "fusion" or "progressive" sound rather than old-school trad. Karen Tweed is one who does so, though she does so very quietly.

Edited to add: I see a comment from a poster above regarding guitar chording. My taste dovetails with this poster--I don't want to hear minor, dominant seventh, and jazz guitar chords with ITM. Let alone counter-melodies using harmonic structures such as jazz. The late Dennis Cahill had it just right for my taste. But the "progressive" or "fusion-y" approach is definitely out there.
 
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More on the OP's original topic, CCPDX recently posted a video of himself playing a set of English tunes. CCPDX, what is the reed configuration and tuning on this accordion?




In case your query got lost in the other chatter, here is a thread about this cool accordion:

 
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Thank you for the link. There wasn't much info about the accordion in the thread so hopefully CCPDX can give us some information on the reeds and tuning.
I always appreciate your perspective on this forum. Are you a B/C accordion player? You referenced doing master classes with Joe Burke.
 
far be it from a digressor such as myself to oppose drift. But the thread topic concerned accordions, and my comments focused on accordion basses. Regarding accordions, yes, major chords are used at times. But on accordion, Minor chords, dominant 7ths, jazz chords, suss chords, etcetera . . . you can use them, but it's more of a quote-unquote "fusion" or "progressive" sound rather than old-school trad. Karen Tweed is one who does so, though she does so very quietly.

Edited to add: I see a comment from a poster above regarding guitar chording. My taste dovetails with this poster--I don't want to hear minor, dominant seventh, and jazz guitar chords with ITM. Let alone counter-melodies using harmonic structures such as jazz. The late Dennis Cahill had it just right for my taste. But the "progressive" or "fusion-y" approach is definitely out there.
The Karen Tweed interview posted above was fantastic and made some great points about the "role" of the box--I just finished listening to it.

I'm also bit of a digresser myself and love pushing boundaries. There are some wonderful groups doing cool modern harmonic things with NeoTrad and Irish tunes that I really enjoy. That said, these tend to be successful when done in duos or small groups where everyone is on board with the "alterations" (for lack of a better word) and the result is indisputably something new that references the traditional. The problem arises when a novice uses those recordings as reference for learning the chords, because It sounds awful when unilaterally layered over a bigger session with other chordal instruments playing more traditional progressions. I'm not alone here--this is a perennial complaint over at thesession.org.

Coming to Irish Traditional (ITM) from the jazz world, I too was used to the endless variety of possibilities for reharmonizing a melody but, as interesting as they are, most of them don't sound very Irish at all for some of the reasons laid out above.

In that same vein, I've been having fun "Klezmerizing" Irish Trad tunes on the fly with only a few deft changes to the rhythm and mode of the melody (and vice versa) and it is fascinating how similar they are in most regards. Yes, I would expect major stink eye from either camp if I played them this way at their sessions, just as if I dropped a bunch of Steely Dan progessions at a Bluegrass/Old Time session.

Thank you for the link. There wasn't much info about the accordion in the thread so hopefully CCPDX can give us some information on the reeds and tuning.
I always appreciate your perspective on this forum. Are you a B/C accordion player? You referenced doing master classes with Joe Burke.

It is kind of a Frankenbox - it started life as a 34 note 3 row Diatonic (I forget the tuning) with Darwin Bass (LM). Marc Serafini (the maker) swapped in a new set of reed blocks for me to make it a C-Griff CBA with LM reeds, so it is dry tuned by definition. It weighs in at only 10.8 lbs. so it is light enough to pump those punchy rhythms for hours on end. Reed layout diagram attached below.
 

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Thank you for the link. There wasn't much info about the accordion in the thread so hopefully CCPDX can give us some information on the reeds and tuning.
I always appreciate your perspective on this forum. Are you a B/C accordion player? You referenced doing master classes with Joe Burke.

Ha, I should be clear that it was Joe himself who called the classes I took "master" classes--that's far from a description by me of my own level. I started on PA after struggling with De Cuervains Syndrome as a novice ITM fiddler and going for accordion after liking accordion on itm recordings, plus a suggestion from a musician friend that I'd get on with PA having had some years of piano as a kid/teenager. And I did take to PA, started playing tango, klezmer, lots of wonderful stuff. But re Irish got interested in bisonoric box due to ITM and spent years studying and playing B/C for quite a while. Before shifting to Anglo concertina after falling in love with it in County Clare--also due to the fact that Anglo has more "magic notes" falling in both directions giving expanded phrasing choices, while the "semitone" 2-rows used in ITM only have two "magic notes."

I play both bisonoric and unisonoric concertina, but for accordion have been largely small PAs and CBAs for over a decade now. The reason being that I came full circle and got to feeling there was little point in putting up with the limits and frustrations (for some) of 2-row bisonoric unless you're going to play true one-row-melodeon push-pull style. Not sure I'm describing it coherently enough, but on semitone 2-row boxes, a certain number of keys will finger and phrase old-school back-and-forth push-pull style like a one-row melodeon or harmonica. Concertina players call this "playing on the rows" or "playing along the rows." Whereas, a certain number of keys will phrase on a 2-row semitone box playing "across the rows" using your "magic notes" for longer phrases before a bellows change, imparting a smoother, more fluid and flowing phrasing.

Well, on a B/C box, the keys that phrase "across the rows" in a smooth, fluid way are those most often used in a large majority of ITM sessions and other settings. This is often incorrectly called "B/C style" when it's really "across the rows style." Conversely, on a C#/D semitone 2-row, those common session keys finger and phrase "on the row" push-pull style--on the D row. Often inaccurately called "C#/D style."

I didn't know or understand any of this when taking on B/C box. But it eventually kind of came to me that this fluid sound often heard on B/C is pretty darn close to the phrasing and sound of a unisonoric PA or CBA, and small unisonorics would do ITM beautifully with all scale notes available on the bass side and the option of choosing direction for any melody note. ITM phrasing does have a fluid end of the spectrum, such as the "long bow" fiddlers of Clare and East Galway. I realized that was the sound for me, but without the inconveniences of 2-row bisonorics.

Of course, it's possible to be so smooth you are no longer in the idiom---very common with classical players new to ITM on any instrument, for example. Hopefully my B/C years are helpful in that area--I believe a number of ITM PA players spend or have spent time with bisonorics.
 
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But it eventually kind of came to me that this fluid sound often heard on B/C is pretty darn close to the phrasing and sound of a unisonoric PA or CBA, and small unisonorics would do ITM beautifully with all scale notes available on the bass side and the option of choosing direction for any melody note.
Like CC_PDX, I also play a small three-row CBA with a Darwin 24 Bass. It is the size of a three-row diatonic and only 9 lbs. It fits in beautifully at Irish sessions. Mine came from another French builder, Atelier Loffet:

Not that long ago, before I ordered the small CBA, I was contemplating taking up either the Irish B/C or C#/D diatonic to be more authentic. Then, like you, I read somewhere that the B/C is the most popular for being able to play many common phrases smoothly without having to reverse the bellows. Well, on a CBA, you can do this for ALL phrases, so I decided that there was no point in setting myself back a few years learning a different system.

I think what keeps CBAs from being used more often in Irish music is that most CBAs (like most PAs) are big affairs with more treble notes than you need and those 60-120 bass buttons. Shrinking one down to melodeon size makes all the difference, and you can play in any key. I don't miss the Stradella bass at all, as the open chords of the Darwin system are actually preferred by many for traditional music, and it is much simpler to play.

The diatonics do have one advantage, you don't have to move your fingers around as much to play those fast jigs and reels. Also, the frequent bellows reversals make them sound more authentic, and it is hard to reproduce that on a CBA. But why is that more authentic? I think it is because people are used to hearing it. As compensation for being a little less authentic, a CBA allows you to play combinations of notes impossible on a diatonic, so you can be inventive and start your own new tradition.
 
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I'm old, very old, of mixed celtic/brythonic, gaulish, angle, saxon ethnicities ( classical European mongrel ) born and brought up in Wales and been hanging around the fringes of the music world, including vernacular Irish to be fully aware that most of what passes for 'traditional Irish music' is a load of old cobblers.
What gets touted out in the current scene is, for the most part current re-invention.
Having sat in pubs and other places where music got played spontaniously by whoever happened to be there at any given time, in Ireland - North and South - Wales and England, the modern "traditional" bears very little semblance to the music played then.
I enjoy the actual music being played currently, but disagree that much remains of actual traditional music making especially since the introduction of such imported instruments as are currently in vogue.
The best of the old would be combinations of harp, pipes, tin whistles/wooden flutes and clog tapping.
And one ignores regional customs and styles at one's peril.
 
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didn't know or understand any of this when taking on B/C box. But it eventually kind of came to me that this fluid sound often heard on B/C is pretty darn close to the phrasing and sound of a unisonoric PA or CBA, and small unisonorics would do ITM beautifully with all scale notes available on the bass side and the option of choosing direction for any melody note.
This exactly mirrors my thought process as I was briefly considering a foray into what would certainly have been a frustrating experience with the complexities and limitations of the diatonic world. A box that could only play certain key signatures was a deal breaker for me, like telling a painter they could only use certain combos of colors or a cook that they could only cook cuisines based on the available serving dishes or table shape. I get the reasoning and how they developed, but it reminds me how limiting keyboard instruments must have been in the days before mean or equal temperaments were developed …they were only usable for certain key signatures and all the others sounded dreadful.
 
]]]I think what keeps CBAs from being used more often in Irish music is that most CBAs (like most PAs) are big affairs with more treble notes than you need and those 60-120 bass buttons. Shrinking one down to melodeon size makes all the difference, and you can play in any key. I don't miss the Stradella bass at all, as the open chords of the Darwin system are actually preferred by many for traditional music, and it is much simpler to play.[[[

I couldn't agree more. It is certainly possible to offer MM and LMM CBAs in compact sizes, but the smallest LMM offered by the majority of Italian makers are big 96 bassers weighing 18 to 21 pounds. It's dismaying that the compact Italian CBA offerings are chiefly Saltarelle and Castagnari, at shocking prices. I mean, $6K for the little MM 60-bass Saltarelle Chaville, $8K for the compact LMM Bourroche--with no bass registers. Come on, now.
 
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It is certainly possible to offer MM and LMM CBAs in compact sizes
Yes, but to be truly compact and lightweight, I think you have to replace the Stradella with something simpler, like the Darwin open chord system. The Stradella mechanism adds a lot to the size and weight. I also have a compact Castegnari 60-bass CBA, about as small as they get for a Stradella CBA, and it is not that compact compared to the small 9 pound Loffet, being at least 50% larger and heavier.

I can understand why most accordion companies today would not build this type of small CBA, as the concept is too new, with only a few folk musicians promoting them. However, a few small makers are building them (on demand).

Castagnari now has some Darwin boxes, but only diatonics so far (yes, the Darwin chromatic bass can be used with a diatonic right hand). However, I see no reason they could not offer a model similar to this one as a full chromatic:
 
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I'm old, very old, of mixed celtic/brythonic, gaulish, angle, saxon ethnicities ( classical European mongrel ) born and brought up in Wales and been hanging around the fringes of the music world, including vernacular Irish to be fully aware that most of what passes for 'traditional Irish music' is a load of old cobblers.
What gets touted out in the current scene is, for the most part current re-invention
"Cobblers" - tallies with my experience too.

Across the seas from these Isles lies a wokey folkey package based on a pseudo-authentic tradition that doesn't really exist or at least can't be frozen in time. You see the same defining of tradition in so-called Celtic spirituality, Irish-English history; Scottish-English history; Scottish-Irish history etc. and anything else that can be packaged up, exported and sold.

If you want to look at the contemporary Irish folk tradition on free reed over here, at least amongst younger people, its melodion dominated (which they call an accordion). Also a strong competition focus through Comhaltas, often with insanely virtuosic breakneck versions of ancient (and not so ancient) tunes so it becomes a competitive sport. Its great for agile young people and has huge family support and community around it - far more inclusive than over-sized jumpers, pints and tense pub sessions.

I've read and listened to people going on about the left hand primarily being about adding colour. Yes, sometimes, but not all the time, otherwise you end up with the all too common generic scented candle and tealights round the bath folk noise and mindless droning 5ths evoking not a lot. Folk music doesn't preclude a musical bass line from time to time does it?
 
Ah, the easy, comforting warmth of unfounded assumptions and facile name-calling!

Much of the discussion was most interesting and enjoyable. Hope it didn't shoot too far into the stratosphere for the OP.
 
Only just seen this thread! Just to add my 2pworth, I play a lot of English folk music, and most of the time I use a vintage Excelsior 25/32. It's tuned LM so there's no tremolo, and it has nice, sensitive - and very loud - reeds. The important part is that, having fallen in love with the thirdless chords on my then-new melodeon, I decided to take the bass mechanism apart and modify it so the last row played thirdless chords rather than sevenths. Honestly it's such a great change to have made, and it's led me to develop a style of bass work completely different to anything I've done before. Of course it has its limitations - the keyboard only goes down to a C, and the bass misses off the B which is common in English folk, but all in all it's a pretty good box.
 
Ah, the easy, comforting warmth of unfounded assumptions and facile name-calling!
Chill out a bit mate!
The important part is that, having fallen in love with the thirdless chords on my then-new melodeon, I decided to take the bass mechanism apart and modify it so the last row played thirdless chords rather than sevenths.
A folk accordionist friend of mine also has his basses modified to play open 5ths and he said his pupils have followed suit changing their own instruments. I'm trying to convert them to free bass now ;)
PS I thought your portable harmonium and singing video was great!
 
]]]Chill out a bit mate![[[

"Sheeples," "Cobblers," "Wokey-folkey from across the sea," "oversize jumpers," . . . . Oh, and "Chill out a bit mate!"

It all speaks for itself, rather.
 
In the words of the Great War……..

 
"Cobblers" as in "Cobblers' Awls."
Might be worth a quick search?
Oh and over here it can rhyme with "Rowlocks."
 
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