Roland FR-5 Acoustic Accordion Section - Playing back MIDI and having the acoustic accordion section be heard

[Vince Matinsky]

Hi everyone,

Up until now, I have only used the FR-5 as a 'Master Controller' to trigger my MIDI Modules. I have never used the Acoustic section by itself, as I always had the bellows closed when using it as the Controller.

I have set up one set strictly for Acoustic Accordion playing using the bellows and then having it play the acoustic accordion sounds live.

I have been trying to sequence the MIDI data from playing the acoustic section, and I know the bellows areExpression (CC011). I see the MIDI data (notes) being played, but when playing back, I only get the MIDI Modules, and not the Acoustic section sound that I played it on.

I must be missing something....I have a couple of the 'Acoustic' Accordion sounds that are nice, and was hoping to play the MIDI data into the sequencer and using the bellows. Then, I was hoping on playback that those same Acoustic Accordion Sounds would be played back with the same bellows expression that I played it in as....

Perhaps there is a mode I'm missing? I'm new to the 'Acoustic' Sounds aspect of the FR-5.

Thanks for having a great forum like this!

Regards,
Vince.

 

[dak]

You have to tell the FR-5 in its settings to send expression data. Also check what other MIDI parameters are being sent.

 

[Ventura]

the data you capture in the sequence is the data you noticed,
but whatever sound it might be used to TRIGGER is independant
of that stream of data. unless the FR5 also transmitted, at the start of
the data stream, a midi sysex type message that could point back to the specific
internal accordion patche, then it will default to whatever patch is the default
for the channel the data is transmitting on

while much of the FR control is via MIDI, the accordion banks are not by any default
part of the MIDI spec. I personally do not know how to address these banks, i do
not think that information was ever made public actually.

if you route the data you have captured to an accordion patch in a virtual synth
or hardware synth with a good Accordion sound, it should express in a similar
way the FR5 does naturally

you usage of the FR5 seems to be rather unique

 

[Vince Matinsky]

Thank you, Dak and Ventura! I appreciate your advice and information. I was starting to wonder if the Acoustic Sound section is a totally 'unique' section of the FR-5.

Looking at the MIDI data, the notes, expression from the bellows, etc. are being sent to the sequencer, and the notes dow play back on the synth modules, but I was really hoping to capture the same acoustic sounds as they were being produced when I play the bellows.

I do have some other accordion patches on my modules, but was hoping to get the same acoustic sound as was being played into the sequence.

Yes, you are right, Dak, my use of the FR-5 is a bit 'out there', but I sure do enjoy the FR-5, even if it is older now and not up to what the new ones, perhaps, have to offer.

Thanks again!

Regards,
Vince

 

[dak]

the data you capture in the sequence is the data you noticed,
but whatever sound it might be used to TRIGGER is independant
of that stream of data. unless the FR5 also transmitted, at the start of
the data stream, a midi sysex type message that could point back to the specific
internal accordion patche, then it will default to whatever patch is the default
for the channel the data is transmitting on

while much of the FR control is via MIDI, the accordion banks are not by any default
part of the MIDI spec. I personally do not know how to address these banks, i do
not think that information was ever made public actually.

Have you bothered to read the manual?

First, we are not talking about SysEx data but program changes. Yes, program changes have to be selected for transmission, but if they weren't, the accordion would still be sounding, just with the wrong registers.

Looking in the FR5 manual, I read

 

[dak]

Yes, you are right, Dak, my use of the FR-5 is a bit 'out there',

That was Ventura who said it, not me. I use my FR-1 to control the Aeolus organ synthesizer instead of using its own organ patches, and I do use the registers for switching around on the organ.


Of course I also use the FR-1 on my MS40, but the program changes do nothing useful there, so I disable them there in order not to accidentally cause chaos.

 

[Vince Matinsky]

Thank you for your response.

Yes, I have read the manual, thanks. I use the program changes from Treble Bass and chords to change the patches on my MIDI Modules.

As I don't see anything other than '000' for MSB and LSB, it transmits straight patch information which can be used to drive any MIDI Module patch as well.

I have Samplers and other devices that uses the MSB and LSB as well.

I will try the Program Changes 1-40 to change my different Sets and see if that helps.

Sometimes, I get annoyed when people say 'Have you read the manual' when I have, and I understand MIDI.

That is also why, on some of these forums people tend to get a bit touchy, and then don't bother to ever login again....

 

[dak]

Sometimes, I get annoyed when people say 'Have you read the manual' when I have, and I understand MIDI.

You do realize that I was responding to Ventura?

That is also why, on some of these forums people tend to get a bit touchy, and then don't bother to ever login again....

It is generally a problem with electronic group communication that intended and actual recipient will easily get mixed up. Sometimes I have to doublecheck before posting that I am not replying to myself because I know how touchy I can be.

 

[Airy]

Hi Vince,
if you have the patience to explain (to me) in more detail what you are doing right now and what you are wanting to achieve I will try to help. Seems that dak and Ventura understood your post well but - maybe because English is not my main language - I don't have a clear picture yet.

As I understand you play the FR5 and record the MIDI with a sequencer. Then you play back the sequence to what? To the FR5 ? Or to some other sound module or software sampler?

When playing back the MIDI sequence and use a soundset which emulates acoustic accordion you are missing the sound variations (volume, expression, to a slight degree pitch) which are typically audible when playing with a bellows on a "real" accordion. Although you used the bellows on your FR5 and although you see MIDI cc11 data ("expression") recorded in your sequence.

If you play back to some other sound module or software sampler: Did you check if that specific device / software / soundset is configured to interpret cc11? Most software samplers I know which emulate acoustic accordion expect the modulation wheel (cc01) to control the bellows effect (because that's what keyboardplayers have easily available).

 

[Ventura]

Sometimes, I get annoyed when people say 'Have you read the manual' when I have, and I understand MIDI.

lol

yes Vince, i did know he was insulting me, but we put up with him becuse he has
a lot of good stuff to offer.. he just NEVER pauses before he hits "Send"

NEVER

hell, i was one of the first people who DID read the manual and reprogrammed
the original FR7/5

but my mention of Sysex was, in context, merely to suggest to you that
the location of the patches of the internal accordions would need to be
identified in something beyond the basic MIDI patch numbers and default locations

he missed that nuance, and took it literally.. as happens often when people
read faster than they think, then do not paure to think it over a bit before
concluding something

and yes i recall that there were other work arounds to send some other
midi messages, i think they were to allow people to control start stop and other
things on external connected devices, i do not recall those specifics..

and btw, assuming your sequence is sending the accordion note data on
channel 1, have you tried selecting an accordion bank and patch a moment
AFTER the sequence starts to run ? just thinking outside the box..

keep enjoying your FR5.. the original models are still the most reliable and
trouble free of the entire line..

 

[dak]

Sometimes, I get annoyed when people say 'Have you read the manual' when I have, and I understand MIDI.

That is also why, on some of these forums people tend to get a bit touchy, and then don't bother to ever login again....

A good remedy when you find that someone makes a forum unenjoyable for you is to use the forum's "Ignore" functionality. The mouseover over a user avatar offers an "Ignore" option that will stop the forum from showing posts of the user to you. That keeps you in the loop with those people whose communication style you can connect with, being a better option for everyone involved than leaving the forum altogether.

 

[Vince Matinsky]

Hello everyone,

Thanks so much for the explanation and information again. I do appreciate it very much!

I had spent many hours trying to get this to work, and I was getting very frustrated! I know everyone here means well!

I knew that I was missing '1' step somewhere.

I found my answer when I went to Midi Menu 12.2 'External Sequence Playback'. I had never used the external sequencer to trigger anything on the FR-5, as I always used external modules instead.

I ran a separate MIDI cable from the sequencer direct to the FR-5 Floorbox MIDI In, and set the External sequence playback to 'On' for the Treble and Bass-Chord, and voila, it worked!

It is always 'one little thing' that causes issues...LOL. It responded well on playback of the acoustic sounds and the CC011 Expression translated well for the bellows as well. All good to go with the Acoustic sounds now being triggered from the sequencer.

I use a MIDI Patch bay with 6 in and 8 out, as well as a MIDISport 2x4 with 2 MIDI Ins and 4 Midi Outs, so from Cubase SX, now I know which patching I need for this, but it really boiled down to not having the 'External Sequence Playback' set to 'On' since I have never used it before this way.

It is a very complex setup that I use, as I also use the MIDI in my sequence to control all 8 lights, doing fades and different effects from within the sequence. They respond very well and I am happy with the setup....Just had never tried to use my FR-5 in this way....And now I know.

Thanks again to everyone, I do appreciate this forum!


Regards,
Vince